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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    destroying a mining industry is really a petty price.
    Well the mining, steel and shipping industries in the north-east of England were basically all that were stopping those areas from dropping into poverty. This led to them having to be propped up on a false economy of public services (and a bloated public sector), which the current Tory government are currently doing their best to dismantle. So yeah, the area in which I live is basically completely fucked and probably will be forever more. One man's 'petty price' is another few million's lives.
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  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jockie View Post
    Well the mining, steel and shipping industries in the north-east of England were basically all that were stopping those areas from dropping into poverty. This led to them having to be propped up on a false economy of public services (and a bloated public sector), which the current Tory government are currently doing their best to dismantle. So yeah, the area in which I live is basically completely fucked and probably will be forever more. One man's 'petty price' is another few million's lives.
    but I don't get it how sustaining the industry is better? the issue would not go away and the price would get higher and higher wouldn't it. Mining and steelworks were public services so as false as what is now. How would your area look now if MT did not "destroy" industries? How could UK mines and steelworks compete with brazil, Pakistan and other cheaper countries. subsidies? thats not solution.


    (again: I know very little about UK at that time and MT. i am misinformed hence why I post here.)

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Can someone explain to me why people hate her?
    Glenn Greenwald gives a short overview, writing for The Guardian:

    Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."
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  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    but I don't get it how sustaining the industry is better? the issue would not go away and the price would get higher and higher wouldn't it. Mining and steelworks were public services so as false as what is now. How would your area look now if MT did not "destroy" industries? How could UK mines and steelworks compete with brazil, Pakistan and other cheaper countries. subsidies? thats not solution.
    Ultimately it's fair to say that the UK would have failed to compete with such emergent economies. However there was probably a good decade where it would of still been economic and profitable, and more importantly there would of been the opportunity for those areas to look at transitioning into more viable arenas. Instead whole towns got effectively punished with these swift mine closures.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 08-04-2013 at 11:55 PM. Reason: cunt pedants
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  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Ultimately it's fair to say that the UK would of
    Would have*

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    but I don't get it how sustaining the industry is better? the issue would not go away and the price would get higher and higher wouldn't it. Mining and steelworks were public services so as false as what is now. How would your area look now if MT did not "destroy" industries? How could UK mines and steelworks compete with brazil, Pakistan and other cheaper countries. subsidies? thats not solution.


    (again: I know very little about UK at that time and MT. i am misinformed hence why I post here.)
    I'm not sure what you mean by 'the issue would not go away'? The coal industry was basically collapsed to destroy the trade unions, other industries like shipping we co-dependent on the mining industry and relied on skilled labour in the area, none of which exists anymore. While not particularly profitable, at least we had a skills and an industry which sustained the region. It might be cheaper to import coal from Brazil and Pakistan, it's not cheaper to do so while propping up a significant portion of the country via taxation. Apparently having a whole bunch of Social Workers to deal wide a wide variety of crippling social problems does not affluence make.
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  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomTangent View Post
    The uncomfortable reality is that all the hard-fought labour market reforms in countries like ours are what make us uncompetitive.
    Not necessarily. I'm pretty sure Sweden has had far stronger unions, more left leaning governments and more stringent laws protecting worker's rights than the UK since the 30s and our economy is still heavily focused on export with a large mining and lumber industry. Competition from developing economies just means that you won't be able to base your entire economy around basic industries and raw material exports - it doesn't mean you need to take them out behind the proverbial shed and shoot them in the head.

    The way the Thatcher government dealt with unions felt far more like trying to eliminate political opposition than protecting the economy and the contempt she showed for anyone who didn't share her particular moral values makes her easy to dislike.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    She did Right To Buy which let people have their council houses for very very cheap prices very clever because it basicall made a lot of working people middle class people that soon loved the conservative government but it made the knock on effect thtat there wasn't enough social housing and still isn't enough social housing for people putting a knock on affect that could actually be seen as the start of the financial crisis, the evil that the government is doing now(the bedroom tax blergh).

    This: http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-tru...-south-divide/

    Which basically made every party want a piece of these people, its no accident that Gordan Brown saw Margarat Thatcher and the Labour council wants to build a statue of her. Labour has turned into basically the tories just because of how stron that people base is there is no difference to the parties there views and actions are just Thatcher+

    http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-wrong-lizards/

    Thatcher basically made the country that hates people on benefits and wants to get out of the EU and wants to privatise everthing including the NHS. That is why she is so hated.

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    thx for everyone's replies. on related note: are people actually celebrating her passing away or is that said in jest?

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChainsawHands View Post
    Anyone in Glasgow going to the party in George Square? Tonight, 5pm!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-22072150

    Man, I wish I was in Glasgow.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lambchops's Avatar
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    As I said on one of the many posts that appeared on my Facebook

    " I'm quite happy to criticise her, sigh at her legacy and call her all sorts of horrible names . . . but celebrate . . . just seems a bit morbid and unseemly to me."

    Or to put it more swearily than I'm inclined to on Facebook, she was a cunt but I'm not inclined to piss on her grave. Though there are those who would argue that calling her a cunt is tantamount to pissing on her grave and they'd just be on the other side of the spectrum of Thatcher opinion to those who are out celebrating. That's cool though, everybody has a different moral line with this sort of thing - just as long as they aren't hypocritical about it (I'm sure some of the Tories who are saying that Thatcher "shouldn't be disrespected" were probably happy enough to have a go at the equally divisive Hugo Chavez not so long ago).

    I also feel the need to apologies on behalf of chemists. I'm pretty sure it wasn't out fault as most of us have opposite political inclinations to the likes of Thatcher!

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    thx for everyone's replies. on related note: are people actually celebrating her passing away or is that said in jest?
    People are actually celebrating with joy.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
    I also feel the need to apologies on behalf of chemists. I'm pretty sure it wasn't out fault as most of us have opposite political inclinations to the likes of Thatcher!
    You heard it here first, all chemists are communists! Cheminists?

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Miners in eighties had the right but you guys?
    It's not just history. Hatred of her is so strong because people still suffer the repercussions of her actions. To some it's politics, to many others it's the very real fact that she ruined their lives. You don't forgive or forget stuff like this.

    So yeah, I'm happy to see whoever feels the need to, put the boot in. She doesn't deserve amnesty just because she's dead.

  15. #35
    Network Hub spacein_vader's Avatar
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    Indeed. She was so hated and reviled she won 3 General Elections.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    Indeed. She was so hated and reviled she won 3 General Elections.
    And that's also why so many people wrote those lovely songs about her. Also, people not in England can't vote for her. She wasn't very popular outside the UK either, having contributed to the elongations of the Troubles in Northern Ireland (which involves part of the Republic)
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  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Country had 27 percent inflation. She apparently stopped that. 27 percent is pretty much breaking point. a bit more and your currency is worthless for next few years (if they manage to repair the economy)
    You criticize her actions but it is not like country was in a good shape was it? and for next two decades UK stayed as one of the richest most modern countries in the world.
    destroying a mining industry is really a petty price.
    Having 28% of British children be born into poverty by 1990 is a pretty big fucking price. It's easy to regulate excesses in a capitalist economy: Let the poor starve. The whole point of economic theory is to develop means for that not to happen.
    Last edited by Nalano; 08-04-2013 at 09:19 PM.
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  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The only thing I give her credit for is a vague feminist icon not because of her policies because obviously she probably agreed with most Tories that the womans place was the home making dinner. But she did get to the top job in a very male dominated sector without losing her principles or having to have sex with the people at the top(not to my knowledge anyway). So thats a little silver lining there.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by spacein_vader View Post
    Indeed. She was so hated and reviled she won 3 General Elections.
    She won 2 horse races that she'd rigged by shooting the paymasters in the other team and dragging British troops halfway around the world to defend her husbands oil interests in the South Atlantic, establishing press-led jingosim which continues now every time we break international law and invade somewhere!!

    Note: The Falklands was a conflict so strictly controlled in reporting terms that news took longer to get back here than it did from the Crimean War where HORSES were used to carry reports! Censorship was higher than in any war in history too - because it was only staged to get her back into power! Before the war there was more chance of Hitler winning a UK Election than Thatcher the Milk Snatcher - she COULD have sent in Nato or the UN but that wouldn't have helped HER y'see.

    As for the miners thing - no-one expected her to 'save the mines', we just didn't want her to actively destroy them so she could cement her position and force-through her short-termist selfish policies on the country. She began the whole 'me me me' economy which is now the 'plantation capitalism' we're stuck with. She was a fan of Milton Friedman and his "batshit fucking nonsense" economics - she would have talked of 'trickle-down economics' and so on - all now completely debunked but that doesn't matter, she and her cronies made their money (and sold-off most of the family silver doing it).

    As for the properly-owning middle class she wanted to create to cement her legacy - she encouraged/pushed people to buy shares (state companies given-away for pennies) and council houses cheap (giving away state assets at a fraction of their value AND depriving the state of income) only for the shares to be sold-on to speculators and most of those houses to end-up in the hands of private landlords.

    Worse still, those same houses are now rented at inflated rents paid from housing benefits - taxpayers are literally paying for assets they gave away with negative funds they're not earning from them anymore!

    In many ways she's the root cause of any 'benefits problem' the current Govt might be bemoaning - and she did it all because she thought there was 'no society' and that everyone would 'get on their bike' and magically become self-supporting entrepreneurs etc.

    p.s. my partner contends that she wasn't the first female PM because she has not 1 iota of feminity to her - hell, even Eddie Izzard has nicer handbags ;)

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    The only thing I give her credit for is a vague feminist icon not because of her policies because obviously she probably agreed with most Tories that the womans place was the home making dinner. But she did get to the top job in a very male dominated sector without losing her principles or having to have sex with the people at the top(not to my knowledge anyway). So thats a little silver lining there.
    In order for her to be a feminist she must first be human.
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