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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlyhabit View Post
    Do you, because art panders to no one, but its creator's whims. Art doesn't care if it offends, sometimes it intentionally does.
    Devaluing one creative work or demanding it panders to a certain demographic because it offends someone is the antithesis of what art is.
    It's the whole why in a creative field do my rights end where your feelings begin?
    When the creator's whim is to make an assload of money off an adolescent boner, that art is shit and should be treated as such.

  2. #22
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    When the creator's whim is to make an assload of money off an adolescent boner, that art is shit and should be treated as such.
    That's the joy of art being subjective, and being funded by the masses (as is the case for games).
    Voting with your wallet is very relevant, demanding a creative work to be changed however isn't.

    A prime example from one of my favorite story driven games from last year, Game of Thrones RPG:
    No female character to play? Shame on you!

    by Bamzen 02 April 2012, 00:15
    I've looked everywhere, now.. As far as I can see, there is no female character for the girls to play.
    So that pretty much ruin it for my girlfriend 100%. If this was a serious game, a serious RPG, you would have taken the time to make it possible for a female to play as a female character. Oh yeah, there is alot of girls out there that watch Game of Thrones.

    And please, don't dear use The Witcher 1 or 2 game as an example as The Witcher is a KEY character of the story, even in the book. While in this game, the two characters you can chose from is NOT any KEY characters in any story from the Game of Thrones, they are just made up for the gameplay experience, so should had made up a female character aswell that the girls could play as.


    So if you was serious about making a good Game of Thrones RPG, you would had made it possible for ALL fans to enjoy the game, not just for guys or girls that like to roleplay guys, for this is.. a roleplaying game, or am I wrong? So shame on you for not having a female character. Stigma going on or just cutting spending on the game because they don't really care about anything then selling a product that they likely think mostly only guys would go into buying.

    Shame on you!
    Really, shame on you!

    And I want to quote Jelly here;
    Jelly wrote:two characters we really thought of. They have their own background, their own specialities, their affiliation, and everything is in accordance with Georges Martin story (and been approved by George Martin).
    So if you are a real fan of RPG, you should like it. At least, it's what we hope.

    'Yes, I'm a girl and I love RPGs, but not when I can't play out as a female character, do you understand that?'
    Could you not care about creating ONE female character with own background, own specialities, affiliation?
    I mean, are you going to say that girls in Game of Thrones don't fight or something?

    Do you know who Daenerys is?
    Or Arya for that matter?
    and there is even more in that thread from http://forum.gameofthrones-rpg.com/v....php?f=6&t=145

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadlyhabit View Post
    That's the joy of art being subjective, and being funded by the masses (as is the case for games).
    Voting with your wallet is very relevant, demanding a creative work to be changed however isn't.
    ...Unless it's at the behest of your corporate leash-holder, right?

    This message brought to you by Coca-Cola.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    You guys... are too much. I don't even know if you guys are serious or trolling each other anymore.

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Too subtle? Maybe if I put my chainmail thong on.

  6. #26
    Lesser Hivemind Node L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentalepsy View Post
    example
    After all the debate about this subject, I'm not sure where I stand, but this post is mandatory reading.

  7. #27
    Obscure Node deadlyhabit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    ...Unless it's at the behest of your corporate leash-holder, right?

    This message brought to you by Coca-Cola.
    Guess what if you vote with your wallet, those things don't get made, or if they do, they're not corporate publishers making them, but private investors waiting on return... you know capitalism and the free market.
    These tropes and shallow character designs/stereotypes continue you to sell, and even if you call it shit art as well as I do, the market supports it.
    Your "corporate leash-holder" argument just shows that more devs are willing to sell out, or fall under a publishers banner, than cut costs or go indie, it has nothing to do with sexism, it has to do with corporatism and capitalism.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    Do you want me to list the mass media that doesn't actively insult my intelligence, or will you take my word that it's out there?
    Go on then. I'm interested to know what mass media is out there that doesn't have some element of it that will actively insult your intelligence.

    This obviously rules out television, books, movies, music, newspapers and magazines, radio as every single one of these has an abundance of crap that would be claimable to be an insult to intelligence the same way video games could. What one have I missed?

    And What., I generally agree with you that women might play games as female avatars and like that they're "perfect" the same way men do. I can think of at least a handful of girls I know who all bought and loved Bayonetta for that very reason. Both my sisters really liked playing Tomb Raider games and liked Lara Croft.

    I agree with you, but this is about the fourth or fifth topic on this or that has spun off into this debate and it's one that I'm pretty tired of.
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  9. #29
    Network Hub Dead Herald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    You guys... are too much. I don't even know if you guys are serious or trolling each other anymore.
    Serious trolls. You know the kind who think they're saving the world, but are just bitching over stupid shit that makes no difference in the long run. Just like every other forum of high-pitched, whiny, self-aggrandizing twits who are too complacent in their comfortable lives gifted to them by their parents and have to make mountains out of molehills because they're eternally bored, spoiled brats who demand the center of attention at all times.

    I'd say get a real job, but we all know hippies are to jobs as slugs are to table salt.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Go on then. I'm interested to know what mass media is out there that doesn't have some element of it that will actively insult your intelligence.

    This obviously rules out television, books, movies, music, newspapers and magazines, radio as every single one of these has an abundance of crap that would be claimable to be an insult to intelligence the same way video games could. What one have I missed?
    Meaning of course specific works within those mediums rather than the medium as a whole. Fear not though, brother! I have reserved the next four pages for an argument over semantics.

  11. #31
    Network Hub Skeletor68's Avatar
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    Women, women, women, women, women... BATMAN/WOMAN!!!!!!!

  12. #32
    Hey, thanks for this thoughtful response.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Obviously they still need to be attractive, but I don't think a game that is pandering to women would be full of oiled dudes in thongs, It's more likely that every non main character would be some sort of loveable rogue with a heart of gold or something.
    Could be. Like I said, I'm just making this shit up. :p But then, I find it a little hard to understand the male pandering, as well. Yes, breasts are nice and all, but what is with all the butt shots and armor cleavage windows and sex kitten main characters? Do guys in general like this crap, or do they just roll their eyes and get on with the game, like I do? I guess at least some must dig it, or there wouldn't be so much protest about how men are being enslaved in the burqa factory or whatever.

    That said, though, my aim was chiefly to come up with character designs and behaviors that prioritized absurd sexuality over hero fantasy or characterization. Like you said, men and women aren't necessarily perfect opposites when it comes to sex fantasy, but the purpose of my experiment is less "what would straight women want to see?" and more "what do straight men* probably not want to see?," since I think that's moreso the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Part of the issue for me is that I don't really get what women sometimes find attractive. I can look at some actors/characters and even though I don't find them attractive I understand intellectually what it is about them that is, but sometimes I'm just baffled. Take Edward Cullen/Robert Patterson. I don't get it. His face looks blocky and slightly deformed to my eye.
    Sometimes I think that I could play a game that panders to women and not even notice.
    Ew, do women (or girls at least) like that dude? :p

    On balance, I don't get why guys like Angelina Jolie. Maybe I'm just the odd one out here.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    I think it would be. In my searches for hot male characters I came across Dante from one of the DMC games who is wearing a leather jacket with nothing underneath and the front open showing off his chest. It's the closest thing to your theoretical example I've come across. It's vaguely impractical (mmm, sweat on leather, comfy) and just serves to shows off his fine, fine abs, but really I just find it slightly amusing. It raises a wry smile and then I move on.
    Agree there. Of course, it's also not really an issue for the fiction, since he's a superhuman devil-knight and not terribly bothered by blocking a sword with his fine, fine abs. If a CSI agent dressed like that on the job, I'd be a bit puzzled at best.


    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Again though, would women actually find that sexy or is it just faintly ridiculuous? (Is it both?)
    I'd say it's ridiculous, first and foremost, which is actually part of my point - what we have now is ridiculous. Is it sexy to women? Would it sell? I dunno (ladies, get in here and discuss the bat-thong!). I'm just trying to envision a scenario that would put male gamers in a roughly comparable situation, even if it isn't realistic. It's a little hard to really put myself in that place, because I've never been there and I'm not totally sure how it would really affect me, but the key here is saturation. It's easy to be amused by it here and there, but if I just kept seeing the same lame-brained crap over and over, I think it would start to grind on my nerves. The OP posted essentially that women have their unrealistic pandering and men have theirs, so everything's equal and balanced; the thing is that when it comes to games, it's really not.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    When I'm given a character creator that lets me recreate myself, what I create is usually a thinner and more muscular version of myself, because that's what I'd like to look like. Not because I'd like to be more powerful, but because I'd like to be more attractive. In hindsight, maybe I should give up the diet and work on my roguish qualities, but those are my motivations.

    If women don't want to play someone thinner than themselves with bigger breasts because they don't think the same way as I do, fine, but I honestly don't know if they do or not, or maybe there is some minority that find it objectionable while the majority are quite happy to do so, or some other more convoluted situation that isn't really helped by cries of "ban this sick filth".
    Nah. Most everyone wishes they were fitter and more attractive than they are; filling that in is just part of building a power fantasy. It's just that it doesn't really end at building a stronger, better you; whether it's your custom MMO character, your typical Strong Independent Female or just the supporting cast, so many of these characters seem to be written and draw under male gaze, even if unintentionally.

    Not that you can please everyone, of course. In MMOs, some women** complain about the ugly "realistic" armor, because they want to feel sexy in a plate bikini. So, it's nice to have options. There just tend not to be enough options.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Maybe. Hard to say what I'd put up with to still be able to play games unless I experienced it, but I'm still putting up with stupid DRM, always online, microtransactions, and all sorts of other anti consumer crap and it hasn't stopped me yet...

    Here we also start to brush up against some logical inconsitancies.
    If there is an all pervasive anti-female environment scaring off women, how come 50% of gamers are women?
    (according to the supporting material in John's post)
    Well, I don't know that many have been scared off. Some have, I guess - most likely those who have had only passing interest in or introduction to games - but like I said, if the situation were reversed, I wouldn't give up my hobby. It might affect the games that I buy and play, but after a while, I would definitely speak up and say "hey, can we maybe get something different for a change, so my badass mercenary isn't running around in his underwear like an idiot?" The female gamers that I know are pretty much coming from that perspective.

    It's not always one or the other, obviously. Jesus_Phish brings up Lara Croft, who from what I've gathered appealed to a lot of women when she came out - in spite of, for example, the fact that she's lying naked on the beach for some stupid reason on my Last Revelation sleeve. They don't give that a pass, necessarily, but it isn't the only important thing.

    That's the point, really. You or I or Activision can assume things, but bringing people into the discussion to see what they actually want, what they actively don't want, and what they don't care about is the key.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Of course there isn't one, but based on what the majority of women seem to consume in other media (in terms of romance novels/chick flicks) I'm not sure that the RTS as a genre is ever really going to be a coherent vehicle for what they're looking for. Then again, who knows, maybe Company of Heroes is full of chisel jawed men in uniform that were busy pushing buttons and I didn't notice.
    Haha. Well, it's interesting that you say that, because it's true for men as well. If I were looking for fanservice, an RTS is about the last genre I'd go for. I guess Blizzard managed to cram some in anyway, though. After seeing Big Jim's big curves, I had to take a cold shower.

    * Frivolous side question: do gay dudes like the bat-thong?
    ** At least some of those women are actually women.
    Last edited by Mentalepsy; 10-04-2013 at 12:12 PM.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by What. View Post

    My final point; I play games all the time where I'm an impossible dude. Impossibly muscled, impossibly heroic, impossibly skilled, impossibly awesome. I'm OK with that. Why would a woman feel not OK when she plays as an impossible character?

    What is the difference?
    Simples.

    The impossibly-proportioned woman is a male fantasy of the ideal woman he wants to shag.

    The impossibly-proportioned man is a male fantasy of the ideal man he wants to be.

    Now, generally, it just so happens that ideal man a woman wants to shag tends to look a lot more like the ideal man a man wants to be. Because generally women want men to big, strong and powerful. Whereas generally men want women to be slutty, hot and submissive.

    But it turns out what women want actually varies a lot more. The female fantasy of the ideal man seems to be a lot more divergent than the male one. And when you try and cast the main (male) character as anything other than the big muscley barbarian type, you get a problem. You can get away with the slightly more sensibly proportioned wise-cracking rogue type, because that's another male and female ideal for male-ness.

    But go any further... well did you see the controversy when a male character tried to flirt with your male PC in DA2? Someone mentioned Dante upthread, but did you see the controversy when the latest game turned him to less of the male ideal of maleness and sent him a bit Twilight, into the female ideal of maleness realms?

    And that's just scratching the surface. I suggest if you have any close female friends, try asking them what their fantasies of the ideal man actually are. Then imagine playing those characters in a video game.

  14. #34
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    When the creator's whim is to make an assload of money off an adolescent boner, that art is shit and should be treated as such.
    Pretty sure most people aren't buying Starcraft 2 for kerrigans ass.

    Also if you average adolescent wants to look at 'fine asses' I'm fairly sure there's a plentitude out there on the interwebs that don't require wading through a $60 game.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mentalepsy View Post
    * Frivolous side question: do gay dudes like the bat-thong?
    If the Cho Aniki series is representative of anything other than the strangeness of its creators, then yes.

  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I'm sure plenty of women were thinking, "man, should I ever be tortured and assimilated into a giant alien insectoid hivemind, I certainly hope my ass will look bangin'."
    I really didn't expect to get a good laugh out of this topic.
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by What. View Post
    I play games all the time where I'm an impossible dude. Impossibly muscled, impossibly heroic, impossibly skilled, impossibly awesome. I'm OK with that. Why would a woman feel not OK when she plays as an impossible character?

    What is the difference?
    I'm genuinely interested to know if you've actually thought about this for yourself, and come up stumped. Or if you just don't care, and believe the question rhetorical?

    But if it helps:

    The fantasy figures of men in games are designed to be idealistic males, strong, powerful, and capable. Something for men to aspire to/fantasise about being.

    The fantasy figures of women in games are designed to be sexually appealing for males, under-dressed, vulnerable, and often incapable. Something for men to look at/fantasise about being with.

    Let me underline, since apparently if you don't spell this out every time you have to fend off hordes of the worst sorts: neither is wrong. Neither shouldn't be in games. But all anyone is pointing out is that they're designed for men. And that they're increasingly tacky, tedious, and alienating to a huge group of potential players. (And let me ALSO add that no, I too do not identify with giant muscley war heroes, nor aspire to be one. However, I also have the perspicacity to recognise that when my avatars are invariably strong, powerful and successful, it's not sending me an equivalent message to "weak, sexual and in need of rescue.")

    Can you see why it might be preferable to portray strong female characters without designing to be titillation for male players? To allow them a full suit of armour, that their male counterparts wear? To let them at least cover up their butt cheeks in the fields of war?

    I think the best answer possible though, is ask women you know. Ask them what sort of character they'd prefer to play. (Please note I didn't say "woman". The answers will obviously be many and varied.)

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Maybe carry out a female gamer survey. That way we can get some answers as to what female gamers want, and how they want to be portrayed.

    If anything conventions like like comic con cos-player demonstrate: -

    http://www.tested.com/art/makers/451...splay-gallery/

    People of either sex like to fantasize
    Last edited by Kadayi; 10-04-2013 at 03:46 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Maybe carry out a female gamer survey. That way we can get some answers.
    What, you mean ask women for their opinions instead of just guessing or making up claims because one person said something?

    How dare you try progress this issue.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    What, you mean ask women for their opinions instead of just guessing or making up claims because one person said something?

    How dare you try progress this issue.
    I should of added 'call me crazy but...' beforehand. My apologies.

    I mean that would require proper research to take place.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 10-04-2013 at 03:58 PM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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