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  1. #361
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    http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HughJ..._arts_sake.php From Hugh Jeremy of Unknown Worlds (Natural Selection 2).

    How quickly such simple truths fall under withering fire. How quickly young, impressionable males rush to submit their alternative visions: Skinny waists, 'booby armour,' lesser gameplay attributes, misogynistic titles, dismissal of the entire form as a superfluous development undertaking, worse. The NS2 community has been recognised as one of the most mature, inclusive and progressive player communities in gaming. If so many of them took up the banner of the cave-man, how many of your players harbour such attitudes?

    The answer is many. Many of our players - 'our' being those players of all games - actually believe it when they say a woman's place is off the battlefield, in the kitchen; that their genitalia gives them an unassailable right to disparage the physical and cognitive ability of their fellow creatures. This is not an exaggeration, as any female who has dared to turn on their microphone during a game of Call of Duty will attest, or Anita Sarkeesian will be happy to explain.

    This is not acceptable and we have the power to do something about it. You can start with the simplest actions: Stand up to demands to sexualise female characters. Question the requirement that a protagonist be male. Analyse dialogue for signs of the 1920s. Young men and women will play your games - And if your game is as successful as you hope, huge numbers of them will be influenced by it.

    We all have a duty to wield that influence with honour and integrity. Discharging that duty is not difficult, it is within the bounds of our development skillset. To do so is to make art - in a truer sense than even the most photo-real graphics and immersive soundscapes can achieve. In creating that art, in fostering discussion, dissent and discourse, we will have done something right. In the past, we might have acquiesced to ‘pick up that can’, but we won't walk away without working to ensure those that follow will not have to.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/HughJ..._arts_sake.php From Hugh Jeremy of Unknown Worlds (Natural Selection 2).
    Wow, I find it pretty amazing that a developer of a violent video game is pushing the 'kids are influenced by games' angle. He should be careful with that. It's essentially what we once heard from people like Jack Thompson.
    I like how he tries to subvert any blame from even his own players, too. I don't know what he's talking about with NS2's great community, I've been cussed down hard in it for the treasonous crime of being new.

    Ugh, I guess I just really resent the fact that, though all the gender-related problems in video games are very much real things, it's SUCH an easy thing to point out, and you're not being clever or heroic by speaking loudly about such issues and claiming to stick up for oppressed people.

    Really, there's a difference between academic feminism and the tumblr-style fuckwittery and misinformed shaming that goes on in these communities. We should learn that difference and give less airtime to the attention-seeking nobodies who are wholly unqualified to offer commentary on such subjects - not everyone who has a problem with something in video games (relating to a certain issue) is necessarily correct, or deserves to be heard. One thing that springs to mind in this vein is RPS' coverage of the supposed E3 'rape joke' which was constantly thrown about on here. I was amazed that that's what was people took from this particular exchange, and horrified that people were offended by it. So many people, too. It was lame, but inflammatory? Come on. I thought RPS was more sensible than that.

    I mean, this whole 'being offended' by unrealistic portrayals of things in media is getting old. I was born with one good eye and one bad. Should I be offended by video games' portrayals of glasses-wearers like myself? Well ... I didn't shut off Metal Gear Solid as soon as pants-wetting glasses-wearing wimp Otacon appeared. I like to think I have some perspective, and that I can tell the difference between reality and a game.
    Other media is more guilty of this kind of 'offensive' stereotyping anyway. Why is there such a stink in video games journalism about all this stuff?
    Last edited by Bingo Bango; 09-08-2013 at 11:43 AM.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bingo Bango View Post
    Ugh, I guess I just really resent the fact that, though all the gender-related problems in video games are very much real things, it's SUCH an easy thing to point out, and you're not being clever or heroic by speaking loudly about such issues and claiming to stick up for oppressed people.
    That's a dumb thing to "really resent". Misogyny, patriarchy and cheap, ubiquitous tropes are all cliches, so critiques thereof generally will be cliched and predictable as well. It still must be done. I'd personally just get on with my life rather than bleating about, "Oh not this again!" like a tantrum-throwing toddler who doesn't want her broccoli.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bingo Bango View Post
    I like to think I have some perspective, and that I can tell the difference between reality and a game.
    Well, you're you and everyone else is everyone else. Recalling the top of your post, you're free to believe games don't influence kids, but I think that's an exceptionally naive stance. I'm often around kids who play games, and considerable bits of their lexicons and interests are shaped by them (especially so in the kids who are essentially parented by electronics). Hell, play itself evolved as a mechanism for learning.
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  4. #364
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    I wanted to comment on the Hotline Miami article, but it looks like comments there are disabled, so I will just do it here.

    I wanted to raise why the issue of violence is probably more acceptable in art than is rape, and why rape is a more sensitive issue.

    Violence, of any kind, is more universally treated as an evil thing. We accept that war, killing, maiming, bombing people to bits, all of these are bad things and we should, as civil people, not wish them upon other people.

    We go to the movies, all universally accepting, that people should not be bombed to bits. We have had this as a cultural norm for decades, to be exposed to, if not always aware, of the hypocrisy of going to the movies and cheering Iron Man or Terminator for beating people or shredding people to bits. But we are again, if not acutely, at least obtusely aware that this is not proper behaviour in real life.

    IMO, as a cultural thing, violence is more accepted as something we shouldn't do. And we have lived with the hypocrisy for a very long time, without a problem.

    We should be also aware that hypocrisy isn't "wrong" on it's own. It is not "wrong" for us to play violent games, as we understand as movie goes and game players. What is wrong is promoting or acting out violence in real life. The same can be said for rape in games versus in real life, I agree. But I don't feel this addresses the whole story of rape as a medium to send a message.

    The difference in my opinion is that violence has been part of the cultural mediums of movies and books for time immemorial. And rape has not. We have not been desensitized to rape through videogames (maybe through internet porn, but that is an entirely different phenomenon...).

    In my opinion, this is why Hotline Miami's criticism of violence in games works, when using violence, while their discussion on rape is off target.

    Violence is something we are desensitized to in videogames, movies, TV shows, sports, even the news.

    Rape is a completely different topic, one which has not yet been discussed, and is simply not morally acceptable to put in games as frequently as impartial unisex violence. We do not have yet cultural acceptance to feature PG13 movies or R+ movies where desensitization to rape is a common theme, in my opinion.

    Why rape was a feature of Hotline Miami 2 is something I don't understand, and I agree it should be deeply controversial. I do not demand they remove it, however I do demand that there is a discussion just to see why violence and rape should be looked at differently in context of a videogame.

    IMO, Hotline Miami 2 does not seek to explore rape as it seeks to explore desensitization to violence.

    It could be argued however, it seeks to explore desensitization of violence AND sexual violence at the same time, to achieve a greater effect.

    However, in my opinion again, it fails to do this, because it not only became a distraction to the main event (the violence, and criticism of violence in games), but it failed to deliver context for rape in games.

    Violence in games has a historical context of 30+ years. Games with shooting and death and blood have been around since games existed.

    Rape in games has not, and as such there is no context for the criticism of sexual violence, and deeply unexplored subject as far as games go.

    This is why I think it is distasteful. No stage has been set to criticize games for desenstization through rape.

    There was a stage set for the impartial violence of shooting and beating in cinema and TV shows and games for 30+ years. I maintain no stage has been set however to use Rape to send the same message.

    So yes I think it is very distasteful and HLM2 should not have approached the subject of desensitization using rape as a vehicle. I think it was a cheap shot. It is shocking, I agree, and may have an effect, but I still think it was wrong to choose to use rape as a vehicle of this message.

    The topic of rape has simply not been discussed very deeply for our culture I think (sexuality and sensual sex is not rape). The same can maybe be said about violence in games such as Call of Duty where they use real weapons and pay real manufacturers for the right, and people actually go out and buy the guns maybe.

    I do honestly believe HLM's criticism of violence in games, using violence in games, is a very strong thing (maybe exaggerated, but it was a very well made "game" and experience). It made a point, at the very least, I credit it that.

    I just don't agree that actively raping a character in the game HLM2 elevates HLM2 or it's message of desensitization to any new level, and if anything it just detracts from the focus which is our cultural acceptance of violence in cultural media. Rape is not just some ancillary feature of violence in movies and videogames in my opinion, that's why it fails.

    ----

    As an aside, rape in culture broader than games is, around the world, more accepted than violence in some societies. And this may even include a lot of western countries, especially those with many different monocultures with strong beliefs in family pride and such things (can be secular families, but more often related to South Asian, Middle Eastern, and Oriental families).

    Sexual abuse is experience by women at a rate of 25% and men at a rate of 10%. These numbers could actually be higher, especially in men, but either in men or women, due to lack of disclosure. Sexual abuse and rape is most often perpetrated by family members or persons known to the victim. Likely offenders are fathers, mothers, stepfathers, siblings, aunts/uncles, teachers, sports authorities like coaches, etc. And this acts can be towards sons, daughters, wives, or other relatives. The most likely people to perpetrate these acts are often people who are sexually abused or physically abused themselves in the past. They are also often of very poor intellect and have very poor levels of inhibition.

    Rape, and sexual abuse, is one of those topics that victims don't even wish to discuss (similarly, abuse or child abuse of non-sexual type can not be wished to be discussed and can be under-reported).

    Anyway, child abuse and physical abuse tends to have a more universal agreement that the perpertrator is doing something wrong however. Sexual abuse and rape does not always have this luxury, as attitudes, particularly not favouring the women, involves a lot of victim blaming. Rape particularly does not have this luxury.

    I'm sure many people have heard of US politician comments about "rape" being different from "forcible rape" being two different things. I'm sure many people have heard about the international reported gang rapes in India. I'm sure many people have also heard of trafficking of women for rape in many countries in South Asia and South America and other places too.

    Rape is one of those evil things which involves victim blaming... violence and murder typical does not. Rape is also "culturally acceptable" in some societies, believe in or not, such as in some South African communities where "gay" daughters are raped to "correct" their feelings. Rape also carries stigmatizing features, where families disown or even murder their own children... sometimes also even send them to entirely new countries just so they can stay away from the same and hope it disappears.

    Rape is simply one of those things that hasn't been well explored in modern society, despite what we may think. Even in the medical field, we have to now frequently discuss the ramification of sexual abuse and rape, because it wasn't done much in the past, and because people bring prejudices when they newly come to the field.

    Child abuse and sexual abuse... these are new subjects, in the sense they are only recently being taken as seriously as the problems that they are. I do not see them as things which may be briefly featured in a game and expect people to understand their nuances.

    Violence in games like blowing a man's head off.... this has had 30 years of distillation.

    Child abuse and sexual abuse are only newly being discussed at even treatment levels. At legal levels, at reporting levels, and medical levels... to be appropriately approached. There are severe problems of prejudice at even these levels (particularly in the consistency of reporting by police of rape, sexual abuse, and even general assault... even in places like UK, USA, and Canada), so I little expect a videogame of all things, one which does a token feature of rape, to raise it properly for discussion. I think it is deeply, deeply wrong of HLM2 to feature this in the game.

    This is why I don't see the token feature of rape in HLM2 as being sufficient to address the issue of rape, or to raise it as an issue, or to use it in it's argument against desensitization of violence. It was a tactless and purposefully offensive move, but IMO it misses the mark deeply and only serves to distract from it's main argument only.

    Should HLM2 have killed a child or infant (male or female) in a token feature event at the end of a level too? Would it have been acceptable form to carry on their argument? I don't think so. It wouldn't have inspired a discussion of child abuse and how to prevent it. It would simply be tactless. Because like rape, child abuse has virtually zero context in videogames, so how can it be retrospectively criticized like general violence in popular culture?

    It would've distracted their core argument as well. Babies and children are typically not killed in feature films or videogames, it is not really a feature of the argument. There is a reason there are no strollers in GTA.

    Child abuse, child sexual abuse, sexual abuse in general, and rape: these discussions need more context, and HLM2 is simply not the place to jumpstart that discussion for society.
    Last edited by rockman29; 05-09-2013 at 06:02 PM.

  5. #365
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Double post sorry... this is just the simplified version of what I wrote above I posted on Vg247.... not that anyone cares just saying where I rewrote this...

    Great post and thank you for posting that, you said it much better than I was going to.

    I feel the comparing of violence and rape is invalid. Violence has had a history of over 75+ years to distill itself in cultural media like movies and TV shows.


    It is because of this, that the HLM criticism of violence in games works. Because violence has always been a platform in games.


    Rape is however an issue virtually untouched by games, and in the cases it is, it’s mostly insensitive.


    HLM can’t use rape to criticize violence in cultural mediums, because rape never was a integral part to the violent features it is bringing attention to.


    What does social discussion and education and understanding of rape and its ramifications have to do with action movies and the obsession with killing in games? The latter of which HLM is about? Not much I think.


    The rape scene in HLM only serves to distract from it’s main purpose, due to it’s obvious shock value.


    Rape needs a different platform to be discussed. Abuse of children, sexual abuse of children or adults, and rape… all of these things are not part of the desensitization that is present in modern action films or games.


    Rape cannot simply be an ancillary narrative to this history of cultural media. It is a topic on it’s own and should be respected as the serious topic it is, not simply paraded and trivialized and exploited for shock value.

  6. #366
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    Open your mind. Not everything happening in a game is about fantasy. What doesn't sit well with people is that they perceive that rape simulation implies that the target audience enjoys the simulation, thereby indirectly blending fiction with reality. If the inclusion of rape is to shock the player and the attempt is not a very effective one, then it is in my view fair to criticize the work for its ineffectiveness, just as you would criticize nonsensical dialogue or weird plot holes but no more than that ​- to claim that it is a moral issue is really people who are looking to find offense.

    Depictions of underdressed women in video games is another one that gets me. It is not sexism; it is idiotic to say that it is; and it is divisive and therefore damaging (in that it creates a wonderful us-against-them platform) to say that it is.

    Perhaps what it boils down to is that every idiot sees themselves as the center of the universe. I am offended by so and so and holy shit is that a big thing. But this doesn't explain why those who aren't even personally affected by the purported offense themselves take apparent offense. It seems that everyone on the planet wants to appear to be progressive and morally superior. Really it's another dick measuring contest, just in a different form.

  7. #367
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    People who aren't affected directly by a thing can still be affected by it indirectly. This is known as empathy and is the ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes. It's not, generally speaking, something to boast about lacking.

  8. #368
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    People who aren't affected directly by a thing can still be affected by it indirectly. This is known as empathy and is the ability to put yourself in someone elses shoes. It's not, generally speaking, something to boast about lacking.
    So, what you're saying is, the guy who's exhorting people to "open their minds" ironically lacks basic empathy.

    Oh snap, is this a direct insult? BAN! And ban me too for quoting it!
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  9. #369
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Maybe he's a replicant



    Hamster, you’re in a desert walking along in the sand when all of the sudden you look down, and you see a tortoise, it’s crawling toward you. You reach down, you flip the tortoise over on its back. The tortoise lays on its back, its belly baking in the hot sun, beating its legs trying to turn itself over, but it can’t, not without your help. But you’re not helping. Why is that?

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    So, what you're saying is, the guy who's exhorting people to "open their minds" ironically lacks basic empathy.

    Oh snap, is this a direct insult? BAN! And ban me too for quoting it!
    And I thought I was being so excellent too.

    But, this is entirely the question I wanted to raise in the 2 locked threads, since uh, use of my choice of insult is the go-to standard for unexcellency.

    Is this skirting around the edges insult by proxy really the standards for excellent that raises this forum up? That if I want to rebut someone for views that cause affront, instead of doing it honestly, I should instead utilise their own words to make them say things about themselves they didn't intend, and then step back and go 'well, it's not me, guv!'

    Because the alternative is that I say nothing at all, and I cannot abide that.
    Last edited by Serenegoose; 13-09-2013 at 11:34 PM.

  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    So, what you're saying is, the guy who's exhorting people to "open their minds" ironically lacks basic empathy. Oh snap, is this a direct insult? BAN! And ban me too for quoting it!
    You have a strange idea of what constitutes an insult.

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bingo Bango View Post
    Other media is more guilty of this kind of 'offensive' stereotyping anyway. Why is there such a stink in video games journalism about all this stuff?
    Amen. RPS seems hellbent on shoehorning this in at every possible turn. That Hotline Miami interrogation was more or less the end of me reading anything by Nathan Grayson and I'm fairly tired of Walker's diatribes, too. There are ways to bring things to discussion where we can have real conversations, and then there's stuff like that stupid e3 rape joke nonsense that got beaten to death.

    PC stands for personal computer, not politically correct. Get off the fucking high horse already.

  13. #373
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    because the alternative is that I say nothing at all
    And too many people do that already.
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  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmastri View Post
    Amen. RPS seems hellbent on shoehorning this in at every possible turn. That Hotline Miami interrogation was more or less the end of me reading anything by Nathan Grayson and I'm fairly tired of Walker's diatribes, too. There are ways to bring things to discussion where we can have real conversations, and then there's stuff like that stupid e3 rape joke nonsense that got beaten to death.

    PC stands for personal computer, not politically correct. Get off the fucking high horse already.
    Name me a way we can sit down and have a real conversation about this. A way we on this forum and site can actually talk about this and come to an actual fruitful conclusion. Go on.

  15. #375
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Any one else miss the good old days when the heated threads were all about piracy?
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
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  16. #376
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fumarole View Post
    Any one else miss the good old days when the heated threads were all about piracy?
    When Kadayi would call me a communist hippie and whoever crawled out of under the rock before tradaa would call me a corporate apologist?

    No.
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    Nalano just can't win, probably because he is a wishy washy fence sitter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    When Kadayi would call me a communist hippie and whoever crawled out of under the rock before tradaa would call me a corporate apologist?

    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    Nalano just can't win, probably because he is a wishy washy fence sitter.
    I think you just hit the trifecta nalano.

  19. #379
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    I think you just hit the trifecta nalano.
    That would have been so much funnier if anybody but you said it.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    That would have been so much funnier if anybody but you said it.
    Well, obviously.

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