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  1. #41
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    A survey means statistics. Not sure that's going to help much either way.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    A survey means statistics. Not sure that's going to help much either way.
    Why wouldn't it? As long as it's carried out properly, has a large enough sample size and good questions on it then what's the problem.
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  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    A survey means statistics. Not sure that's going to help much either way.
    Personally I'm more comfortable with asking someone directly whether they're offended, rather than seconding guessing them.
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  4. #44
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    Oh, I'm personally fine with a survey. I just know for a fact the results will get distorted regardless of what they actually are, because statistics is hard and botching it up while conveniently supporting your point is easy.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Maybe carry out a female gamer survey. That way we can get some answers as to what female gamers want, and how they want to be portrayed.

    If anything conventions like like comic con cos-player demonstrate: -

    http://www.tested.com/art/makers/451...splay-gallery/

    People of either sex like to fantasize
    Well the whole point of cosplay is to dress like the character you like. If they're dressed in slutty and revealing outfits then...

    Bit of a chicken and egg thing really.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Well the whole point of cosplay is to dress like the character you like.


    Pretty win, imo.
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  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Well the whole point of cosplay is to dress like the character you like. If they're dressed in slutty and revealing outfits then...

    Bit of a chicken and egg thing really.
    If they're dressed in slutty outfits and women like them and are dressing up as them, doesn't all that matters is that women like the character, regardless of how someone might like to think that the character is purely male fan service?
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    If they're dressed in slutty outfits and women like them and are dressing up as them, doesn't all that matters is that women like the character, regardless of how someone might like to think that the character is purely male fan service?
    Yup but sometimes they mix. Lara has always physically been a teenage boy's wet dream, but in terms of personality and the rest of it she's a strong, positive female role model.

    I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to posit that there may be women that like Lara and want to cosplay with her, but would also like to wear shorts that cover their bum.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    Oh, I'm personally fine with a survey. I just know for a fact the results will get distorted regardless of what they actually are, because statistics is hard and botching it up while conveniently supporting your point is easy.
    Funny you should say that, but the other day a "respected gaming site" was assuring me that the entire gaming industry was inherently sexist based off a flat salary survey (although seemingly female programmers actually earn more on average than their male counterparts...), and that there was absolutely no way that there could be any other reasons whatsoever (STEM/child care/the insane time demands and working conditions of the industry, etc, etc) as to explain either the discrepancy in pay or the paucity of women in the field, and that it was in fact so patently clear the subject was beyond discussion. This assertion that somehow a survey might be suspect or present an incomplete picture of a complex topic sounds faintly treasonous, possibly even the belief of a communist/mutant traitor, one who should report immediately to the nearest termination station for clone replacement. One does not question the computer. The computer is your friend. Trust the computer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Yup but sometimes they mix. Lara has always physically been a teenage boy's wet dream, but in terms of personality and the rest of it she's a strong, positive female role model.

    I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to posit that there may be women that like Lara and want to cosplay with her, but would also like to wear shorts that cover their bum.
    I'm only a few hours into the latest game, but so far she seems to be sticking firmly to jeans and jackboots. Though given the shitty weather on the island I must admit it seems daft she doesn't grab a jacket of some dead dude at some point.

    Anyway I'd genuinely be interested to see how female gamer's feel about the portrayal of female characters in modern computer games. The inherent problem I find with the viewpoint expressed by RPS is that I get the impression they feel all female characters should wear clothing like this: -

    Sack cloth.jpg

    and that kind of makes me think that this: -

    burqas.jpg

    Is where that road leads you eventually ('I could see her ankles...outrageous!!!')

    Which seems at odds with how a lot of women (or at least those who go to conventions like comic-con and wonder-con) choose to express themselves. After all these aren't booth babes being paid to promote things (although I'm sure some are there) these are people who are making their own costumes, and dressing up in them so the world can see.

    Perhaps they represent the minority? But without some form of extensive survey of female gamer's and their opinions on what they like/dislike about games/the gaming industry/ the direction games are going/how they are represented in games both in terms of appearance and roles it's kind of off base for (us) men to jump to any assumptions in the same way that there was something distasteful about the Islanders in Far Cry 3 needing a pale white dude to rescue them from tyranny. I could see such a survey being a perfect vehicle for Cara to look into in truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
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  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not, but most girls like to show off their bodies and *gasp* even have sex.

  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not, but most girls like to show off their bodies and *gasp* even have sex.
    They also like to do other things, too, which is where the disconnect comes from.
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  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not, but most girls like to show off their bodies and *gasp* even have sex.
    Outrageous lies. Dressing up like harlots and performing shameful acts...it's the devils work

    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Maybe carry out a female gamer survey. That way we can get some answers as to what female gamers want, and how they want to be portrayed.
    Are you mad?

    But then actual journalism might have to happen...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    If anything conventions like like comic con cos-player demonstrate:
    Don't the cos players have to go?

    I thought the problem with booth babes was the way they dressed was creating an environment that made some women feel uncomfortable, not that they were paid for dressing like that.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post

    Don't the cos players have to go?
    What? No. They are fans who dress up as anime/game/comic/whatever characters as a hobby.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not, but most girls like to show off their bodies
    I'm not really convinced that's true. You see more of the ones that do, for obvious reasons.

    Of course everyone wants to be seen to look good (men included) but for 90% of women that's not video-game heroine style dress.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Are you mad?

    But then actual journalism might have to happen...
    I know it's a big ask, but one day...

    Don't the cos players have to go?
    Not that I'm aware. People go dressed up to comic-con etc because they want to. It's not a rule that you have to dress up.

    I thought the problem with booth babes was the way they dressed was creating an environment that made some women feel uncomfortable, not that they were paid for dressing like that.
    I thought it was a bit of a mix between the two. However again that's something that needs to be looked into through a survey of women gamer's/women in the gaming industry.

    Certainly I think that there are issues there, and that people attending do get confused regarding what's acceptable behaviour for sure. However at the same time I'd imagine it's fair to say that the percentage of gamer's who actually attend conventions is quite small Vs the overall number of gamer's, and that those that do are most certainly in the hardcore camp (people who eat/sleep/breathe games). So it's a problem...but how endemic it is to the broader gamer base is another matter entirely (car shows Vs car drivers).

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Of course everyone wants to be seen to look good (men included) but for 90% of women that's not video-game heroine style dress.
    Is it not fair to say that on the whole though Western games are generally getting better with regard to the portrayal of female characters and that it's largely the Asian market lead games that leave a lot to be desired in terms of the presentation of the sexes? (Tera being a prime example)? I think that's a cultural challenge that kind of largely beyond us in many ways at the moment.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 11-04-2013 at 12:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Not that I'm aware. People go dressed up to comic-con etc because they want to. It's not a rule that you have to dress up.
    But by that argument, as long as they only hire booth babes that want to dress that way, it becomes okay.

    My ultimate point is that most any issue that you have with booth babes regarding the effect that they have on other convention goers is going to exist to some degree with the more provocatively dressed cos-players.

    I'd just like to see a thoroughly laid out argument as to why zero tolerance on booth babes and the status quo with cos-players is the correct stance to take.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    But by that argument, as long as they only hire booth babes that want to dress that way, it becomes okay.

    My ultimate point is that most any issue that you have with booth babes regarding the effect that they have on other convention goers is going to exist to some degree with the more provocatively dressed cos-players.

    I'd just like to see a thoroughly laid out argument as to why zero tolerance on booth babes and the status quo with cos-players is the correct stance to take.
    I think ultimately all of these things come down to respecting peoples boundaries/identity regardless of whatever they are up to (that is the key). Whether someones a booth babe, a cos-player or a female developer whose at a convention to show/promote a game they are not there to be fondled/groped or verbally abused/harassed. Unfortunately some men don't understand this.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I think ultimately all of these things come down to respecting peoples boundaries/identity regardless of whatever they are up to (that is the key). Whether someones a booth babe, a cos-player or a female developer whose at a convention to show/promote a game they are not there to be fondled/groped or verbally abused/harassed. Unfortunately some men don't understand this.
    One of the biggest problems in this whole discussion is that there are at least 7 different types of sexism under discussion and people frequently switch between them while arguing* without realising they have done so (I hope).

    People dressing in a sexual fashion, and the various issues raised around that (making others feel uncomfortable) is one thing.

    The behaviours you list that stray into or constitutute actual sexual assualt, is an entirely different thing.

    You can argue that the former fosters an environment that causes the latter to happen, but even if you can demonstrate that that is the case:

    a) The actual instances of each need to be tackled differently when they occur.

    b) It isn't actually an argument that cos-players don't contribute to that enivornment and therefore need to be dealt with as well.

    * In John's comment locked article he pre-refutes a series of responses, one of which is "it's just a bit of fun" which I have seen people use in a "what's your problem with skimpily dressed female game characters? it's just a bit of fun". John goes on to use workplace sexual harrassment as a counter argument. No one who is legitimately trying to have a discussion is excusing workplace harrassment with "it's a bit of fun" are they?

    I've also yet to see any demonstration that workplace harrassment is worse in games development than anywhere else comparable**, but again that would require actual journalism be done.

    ** Yes, "Just because something bad is as bad here as it is elsewhere shouldn't mean you don't do anything about it", however if it turns out that the rate of sexual harrassment in games development is equal to the societal average, it's part of a massive problem that needs to be solved at a much higher level and no amount of pontificating about it from a games writer is actually going to improve people's lives, so focus on something you can change like pre-order boob statues or something.
    Last edited by vagabond; 11-04-2013 at 02:08 AM. Reason: forum at my line breaks

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    * In John's comment locked article he pre-refutes a series of responses, one of which is "it's just a bit of fun" which I have seen people use in a "what's your problem with skimpily dressed female game characters? it's just a bit of fun". John goes on to use workplace sexual harrassment as a counter argument. No one who is legitimately trying to have a discussion is excusing workplace harrassment with "it's a bit of fun" are they?
    The problem I have with that argument is that if that argument was taken to its logical conclusion, all of us would consider mowing down many brown and slavic people (as is the premise of many man-shoots made these days) in real life as "a bit of fun" as well.

    We like to think we're perfectly capable of differentiating between violence that takes place in games and that which takes place in the real world. Many of the games we play use war as a backdrop, yet I think most of us agree that just because we play it doesn't mean we lionise war that happens in real life. Because when we read about the Somme, Verdun, the Rhezv Meat Grinder, Khe Sanh, and Fallujah, we understand that war is probably the ugliest endeavour that can be undertaken by man. By that same token, we can make the distinction between portrayals of women in a game that can be construed as overly sexist with the women we are close to in real life, mothers, sisters, girlfriends, wives, co-workers, classmates, and so forth.
    Last edited by Kevin; 11-04-2013 at 07:43 AM.

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