Page 6 of 20 FirstFirst ... 4567816 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 382
  1. #101
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Part of me also is concerned about a degree of dictation as to saying how people choose to use their sexuality, and I'm not entirely sure it's anyone's right to do that. There are a lot of women who've used their sexuality over the years to great success (from Marilyn Monroe through to Madonna and more latterly kim kardashian) and rightly or wrongly a lot of women identify with them. Who are we (men) to say what's acceptable? Is there not some degree of abhorrent presumption to that very idea?
    I feel there is another way to view this issue, putting the important issue of women's representation aside for the moment. If someone organised for a stripper to come to any event I had anything to do with I would be offended. It suggests that I want strange women to reveal themselves to me. Who is this women? I don't know! Why is she naked? Because its her job. Sexy? Not at all! I will not dictate her ability to work in that industry. It is her choice, and one that she lives with for better or worse. However I can dictate what I participate in and I have no interest in having booth babes at an event. Their presence insults my intelligence.

    Cosplay comes from a different direction. It is fans making the choice to dress up as a character. It is a reflection of the poor state of women's representation in games that most of the Cosplayer's are scantily clad. Nonetheless, they come for their own sake, not because the organiser believes there is a demand. Although I find Cosplay strange, it does not offend me. It is not there for my supposed benefit. It is there for the benefit if the participants.

  2. #102
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    It is fans making the choice to dress up as a character.
    She is still a strange woman assuming that you want to look at her with hardly any clothes on...

    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    It is a reflection of the poor state of women's representation in games that most of the Cosplayer's are scantily clad.
    I'd suggest without doing a decent amount of research that this is not something that you can really draw a conclusion on.
    There are a number of factors that are going to be involved when someone chooses who or what they are going to cosplay as.
    Some of those will be practical matters of how hard or expesive it will be to make the costume, or whether a 6'2" Scandanavian woman believes she can convincingly portray a 14 year old japanese school girl, but others will have to do with how the cosplayer wants to feel when people look at her.

    So maybe they make revealing costumes because cut off denim shorts and a halter top are cheaper and less time consuming to make than plastic moulded into a Mass Effect space suit.
    Or maybe they wear next to nothing because they like to be looked at, and to feel desired sexually.
    Or maybe for something they spend weeks or months of effort on, and only do a couple of times a year at most, they pick the skimpy stuff because they absolutely cannot find three things they'd be more comfortable wearing out of all the female characters in gaming.


    The questions that currently interest me most in this space is, what were the gender ratios of attendees before and after the booth babe ban (at PAX and at similar cons that have not banned booth babes)? and if PAX has seen a difference do they put it down to solely the booth babe thing, or have they been working in other areas to be more female friendly at the same time?

    I fear I'm straying dangerously close to asking for actual Journalism to be done again though, so I'll stop now...

  3. #103
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    She is still a strange woman assuming that you want to look at her with hardly any clothes on...
    That's not really the issue. The Cosplayers do what they do for their own benefit. Booth babes do what they do for my (supposed) benefit. I would like the organisers of such an event that I have no desire for Booth babes.


    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    I'd suggest without doing a decent amount of research that this is not something that you can really draw a conclusion on.
    There are a number of factors that are going to be involved when someone chooses who or what they are going to cosplay as.
    Some of those will be practical matters of how hard or expesive it will be to make the costume, or whether a 6'2" Scandanavian woman believes she can convincingly portray a 14 year old japanese school girl, but others will have to do with how the cosplayer wants to feel when people look at her.

    So maybe they make revealing costumes because cut off denim shorts and a halter top are cheaper and less time consuming to make than plastic moulded into a Mass Effect space suit.
    Or maybe they wear next to nothing because they like to be looked at, and to feel desired sexually.
    Or maybe for something they spend weeks or months of effort on, and only do a couple of times a year at most, they pick the skimpy stuff because they absolutely cannot find three things they'd be more comfortable wearing out of all the female characters in gaming.
    That was truly a throw away remark and I don't want it to detract from the main point. However, I don't think this requires much research to see. A male wishing to cosplay has a plethora of characters to choose from. He can keep to his budget/time constraints without having to compromise to any particular cliche. Female cosplayers have much less choice if they want to avoid the skimp and hence the challenge.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    The questions that currently interest me most in this space is, what were the gender ratios of attendees before and after the booth babe ban (at PAX and at similar cons that have not banned booth babes)? and if PAX has seen a difference do they put it down to solely the booth babe thing, or have they been working in other areas to be more female friendly at the same time?

    I fear I'm straying dangerously close to asking for actual Journalism to be done again though, so I'll stop now...
    An interesting question indeed, however it will probably take a bit longer for any effect to be noticeable. As you say, the difference hinges not only on the ban, but on further steps PAX takes to actively attract a female audience. Time will tell.

  4. #104
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    An interesting question indeed, however it will probably take a bit longer for any effect to be noticeable. As you say, the difference hinges not only on the ban, but on further steps PAX takes to actively attract a female audience. Time will tell.
    It's been 3 years or so, given there are articles from 2010 talking about the ban, so if there has been no change in the gender ratio by now, it isn't going to have made a difference.

  5. #105
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    It's been 3 years or so, given there are articles from 2010 talking about the ban, so if there has been no change in the gender ratio by now, it isn't going to have made a difference.
    Sure it will. The whole industry has to shift. The ban at PAX is a small step that forms part of a larger shift. Give the baby time.

  6. #106
    Network Hub Dubbill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    443
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Part of me also is concerned about a degree of dictation as to saying how people choose to use their sexuality, and I'm not entirely sure it's anyone's right to do that. There are a lot of women who've used their sexuality over the years to great success (from Marilyn Monroe through to Madonna and more latterly kim kardashian) and rightly or wrongly a lot of women identify with them. Who are we (men) to say what's acceptable? Is there not some degree of abhorrent presumption to that very idea?
    The responsibility for booth babes appearing at trade shows lies with the exhibitors who hire them. It's not about telling women how they should dress or how they should use their sexuality.
    Open-faced sandwiches are upon you whether you would risk it or not.

  7. #107
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    Sure it will. The whole industry has to shift. The ban at PAX is a small step that forms part of a larger shift. Give the baby time.
    I'm not asking for the gender split to magically have become 50:50, but if it was 90:10, it should be 89:11 or 88:12 by now at least.

    Otherwise you're just asking people to make a bunch of changes to the way they do things, because it feels like it should improve things.

  8. #108
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    I'm not asking for the gender split to magically have become 50:50, but if it was 90:10, it should be 89:11 or 88:12 by now at least.
    But three years is still not long enough. A 2% shift in the gender split would be statistically insignificant and would be written off as yearly fluctuations. No one expects the world to change overnight. What about within a week? A year? A decade? When we are talking about large cultural changes it is going to take a hell of a lot longer than three years to notice a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Otherwise you're just asking people to make a bunch of changes to the way they do things, because it feels like it should improve things.
    I notice a difference right now: there are no booth babes at PAX. This is already an improved experience for those who don't want to be pandered to like prepubescent boys.

  9. #109
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    I notice a difference right now: there are no booth babes at PAX. This is already an improved experience for those who don't want to be pandered to like prepubescent boys.
    Which is fine if you're you, which on closer inspection appears to be the case, but the apparent aim of all the stuff John is arguing for is not to make you happy, it's to involve more women in the industry and so forth.

    In this particular instance there probably isn't a whole bunch of negatives to taking the proposed action. A bunch of women will have to go and be professionally good looking elsewhere, maybe lose a bit of money. Some games will be advertised marginally less effectively. Big deal.

    On the other hand, some of the other things that are being asked for, like games with a female lead who is a positive role model. The prevailing industry wisdom is that those games don't sell very well. If a developer blows tens of millions of dollars producing a game like that it will probably enough to sink the development house.

    So I don't think asking for some justification here, and some evidence there, is an unreasonable position to take.
    And if it's going to take more than 5 years to see even a 1% change in the demographics, some of this stuff will have to wait until 2033 before it's viable.

  10. #110
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,459
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    I feel there is another way to view this issue, putting the important issue of women's representation aside for the moment. If someone organised for a stripper to come to any event I had anything to do with I would be offended. It suggests that I want strange women to reveal themselves to me. Who is this women? I don't know! Why is she naked? Because its her job. Sexy? Not at all! I will not dictate her ability to work in that industry. It is her choice, and one that she lives with for better or worse. However I can dictate what I participate in and I have no interest in having booth babes at an event. Their presence insults my intelligence.

    Cosplay comes from a different direction. It is fans making the choice to dress up as a character. It is a reflection of the poor state of women's representation in games that most of the Cosplayer's are scantily clad. Nonetheless, they come for their own sake, not because the organiser believes there is a demand. Although I find Cos-play strange, it does not offend me. It is not there for my supposed benefit. It is there for the benefit if the participants.
    I'll be honest I find the former and the latter statements kind of contradictory and rather selective in expression in truth. Seems to me if you're uncomfortable with scantily clad women for personal reasons, then you're uncomfortable with scantily clad women regardless of who they are.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Persons of disinterest: Nalano, deano2099

  11. #111
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    But three years is still not long enough. A 2% shift in the gender split would be statistically insignificant and would be written off as yearly fluctuations.
    Someone with a better working grasp of stats can correct me, because dredging up my University stats knowledge is hurting my brain, but given there are ~6 samples, with a sample size of ~70,000, I'm reasonably sure that a 2% shift couldn't be dismissed as statistical noise.

  12. #112
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I'll be honest I find the former and the latter statements kind of contradictory and rather selective in expression in truth. Seems to me if you're uncomfortable with scantily clad women for personal reasons, then you're uncomfortable with scantily clad women regardless of who they are.

    Booth babes are payed to be scantily dressed. They do it for my benefit. Cosplayer's dress scantily because they want to. It is they who reap the benefit.

    A clear example of why I find this an important difference: I personally enjoy when my girlfriend flirts with me. She does it because she is attracted to me. Were I to pay a stripper to flirt with me it would be far from authentic. I can tell the difference. One is sexy, the other is a woman selling me a fantasy. I'm offended that anyone should believe that I want this fantasy.

    I am not in the least prudish. Women should be able to change a shirt in public. They should be able to breast feed in public. These acts serve a purpose of benefit to the woman and the discretion should be left to the individual. Cosplay serves a benefit to the woman is question.

    Does that clarify things?

  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,459
    I fear you're attempting to reduce everything down to binary results, and that's largely not how the world works or what motivates people to do what they do. You put a heavily emphasis on appearance, but when you reference your girlfriend, you talk about flirting which is a different thing entirely. How would you feel about your girlfriend wearing a low cut top in public? Does that make you feel comfortable knowing other men are undoubtedly ogling her?

    Sure one could say 'well they shouldn't' but the reality is we're all subject to sexual triggers that are inherent to our nature whatever our sexuality. It's all very well to aspire to a purely cerebral existance, but that's a denial of human nature.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 12-04-2013 at 10:12 AM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Persons of disinterest: Nalano, deano2099

  14. #114
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I fear you're attempting to reduce everything down to binary results, and that's largely not how the world works or what motivates people to do what they do. You put a heavily emphasis on appearance, but when you reference your girlfriend, you talk about flirting which is a different thing entirely. How would you feel about your girlfriend wearing a low cut top in public? Does that make you feel comfortable knowing other men are undoubtedly ogling her?
    I apologise - replace flirting with little clothes. I feel you are trying to miss the forest for the trees. I do not wish to put heavy emphasis on appearance. I want to put emphasis on the intention of the woman. The main point I would like to get across is:

    Booth babes are payed to be scantily dressed. They do it for my benefit. Cosplayer's dress scantily because they want to. It is they who reap the benefit.

  15. #115
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,324
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    Booth babes are payed to be scantily dressed.

    Some of them also enjoy the attention just like cosplayers. It's hardly just for your benefit.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,459
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    I apologise - replace flirting with little clothes. I feel you are trying to miss the forest for the trees. I do not wish to put heavy emphasis on appearance. I want to put emphasis on the intention of the woman. The main point I would like to get across is:
    You're falling into the same trap as Dean of second guessing people intentions though. You're presuming what (all) the women get out of it. Also I'd like you to address the question I posed about the low cut top in public. How would that make you feel?
    Last edited by Kadayi; 12-04-2013 at 10:28 AM.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Persons of disinterest: Nalano, deano2099

  17. #117
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    58
    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Someone with a better working grasp of stats can correct me, because dredging up my University stats knowledge is hurting my brain, but given there are ~6 samples, with a sample size of ~70,000, I'm reasonably sure that a 2% shift couldn't be dismissed as statistical noise.
    I'm in the last year of my Masters degree looking at stochastic models of epidemics (a probalistic model using statistical calibration). I assure you that 2% is inconsequential.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by sockeatsock View Post
    I'm in the last year of my Masters degree looking at stochastic models of epidemics (a probalistic model using statistical calibration). I assure you that 2% is inconsequential.
    Is that as fascinating as it sounds?

    EDIT: That seems sarcastic when I read it back, but it was a genuine question! It sounds interesting to me.
    Last edited by RandomTangent; 12-04-2013 at 11:49 AM.

  19. #119
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    GMT-7
    Posts
    3,327
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I fear you're attempting to reduce everything down to binary results, and that's largely not how the world works or what motivates people to do what they do. You put a heavily emphasis on appearance, but when you reference your girlfriend, you talk about flirting which is a different thing entirely. How would you feel about your girlfriend wearing a low cut top in public? Does that make you feel comfortable knowing other men are undoubtedly ogling her?

    Sure one could say 'well they shouldn't' but the reality is we're all subject to sexual triggers that are inherent to our nature whatever our sexuality. It's all very well to aspire to a purely cerebral existance, but that's a denial of human nature.
    One is the commodification of human sexuality. The other is freedom of speech. That men see the latter and assume the former is when they're housed under the same roof should hardly be a surprise.

    It's that same bullshit argument that a woman in a low-cut dress who doesn't want to fuck you is "advertising something that's not for sale." It is not our purview to tell women how to dress, but to send a pervasive message that a woman's body is "For Sale" is a different and entirely more insidious matter. Maybe the booth babes like being commodified? Maybe, and much more likely, they just like getting a paycheck? It doesn't really matter. The fact that they're there selling an illusory status quo where sexual expression is equivalent to sexual aggression is damaging in and of itself, regardless of their motivation.

  20. #120
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Lagoon West, Vermilion Sands
    Posts
    4,459
    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    One is the commodification of human sexuality. The other is freedom of speech. That men see the latter and assume the former is when they're housed under the same roof should hardly be a surprise.

    It's that same bullshit argument that a woman in a low-cut dress who doesn't want to fuck you is "advertising something that's not for sale." It is not our purview to tell women how to dress, but to send a pervasive message that a woman's body is "For Sale" is a different and entirely more insidious matter. Maybe the booth babes like being commodified? Maybe, and much more likely, they just like getting a paycheck? It doesn't really matter. The fact that they're there selling an illusory status quo where sexual expression is equivalent to sexual aggression is damaging in and of itself, regardless of their motivation.
    Which again goes back to my question to Dean, namely where's the cut off?
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

    Steam:Kadayi Origin: Kadayi GFWL: Kadayi

    Probable Replicant

    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Persons of disinterest: Nalano, deano2099

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •