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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    She is still a strange woman assuming that you want to look at her with hardly any clothes on...
    No.

    With deference to Kad, yes some women will dress that way because they're exhibitionists that like the inevitable male attention. But plenty others dress that way just because they want to feel sexy and attractive. That doesn't mean they want men drooling over them.

    That you instantly assume she's dressing that way because she wants you look at her and be turned on by her is exactly the problem we're talking about.

    She may well not be doing it for your benefit. Whereas a booth model is.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Which again goes back to my question to Dean, namely where's the cut off?
    That's easy. You cut it off at having paid models. That way it's known that no-one is being paid to be there to be oggled or leered at.

    That's essentially the issue - it's not what they look like, it's about encouraging guys to get away with stuff they shouldn't get away with. Someone earlier said we shouldn't clamp down on booth babes, but on the behavior of the guys. I agree with that, but the problem is a booth model isn't going to report a guy making lewd comments because it's her livelihood. Which encourages that culture of permissiveness. Until you get rid of the booth models, you don't have a level playing field on which to start enforcing things.

  3. #123
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That's easy. You cut it off at having paid models. That way it's known that no-one is being paid to be there to be oggled or leered at.

    That's essentially the issue - it's not what they look like, it's about encouraging guys to get away with stuff they shouldn't get away with. Someone earlier said we shouldn't clamp down on booth babes, but on the behavior of the guys. I agree with that, but the problem is a booth model isn't going to report a guy making lewd comments because it's her livelihood. Which encourages that culture of permissiveness. Until you get rid of the booth models, you don't have a level playing field on which to start enforcing things.
    It certainly doesn't help when cosplayers are recruited by publishers to represent their product in marketing campaigns, thereby blurring the line, but then I find marketing odious under any circumstance.

  4. #124
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    No.

    With deference to Kad, yes some women will dress that way because they're exhibitionists that like the inevitable male attention. But plenty others dress that way just because they want to feel sexy and attractive. That doesn't mean they want men drooling over them.

    That you instantly assume she's dressing that way because she wants you look at her and be turned on by her is exactly the problem we're talking about.

    She may well not be doing it for your benefit. Whereas a booth model is.
    Dude, lay off the crack.

  5. #125
    Lesser Hivemind Node Winged Nazgul's Avatar
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    Don't forget the majority of risqué cosplay are patterned after media characters with their own female trope issues.

  6. #126
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    I actually meant a version of want with more negative connotations, as you might use in the phrase "what makes you think I want to see you in your underwear".

    Anyway. I don't get where you're coming from at all.

    Being sexy and attractive are qualities that are solely defined by how other people perceive you. If you want to feel sexy and attractive, unless you are deluding yourself, you need to do things that make you the sort of person other people will look at and be turned on by. It's kind of the definition.
    Last edited by vagabond; 12-04-2013 at 04:26 PM. Reason: spelling

  7. #127
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Being sexy and attractive are qualities that are solely defined by how other people perceive you. If you want to feel sexy and attractive, unless you are deluding yourself, you need to do things that make you the sort of person other people will look at and be turned on by. It's kind of the definition.
    Pretty much, it's primarily down to affirmation.

    As regards the whole Booth babe thing. Trade shows are pretty much sausage fests as it stands and I don't think removing Booth babes is somehow radically going to alter that fact, because ultimately people aren't travelling across the country to trade shows to ogle booth babes but they're attending to see games, and whilst the main demographic that games are targeted at are males then that's primarily going to be the interest pool. Makes games for women (or appealing to women), and more women will come.

    Still (and as I said several posts back), the number of people who attend trade-shows is minuscule Vs the number of people who actively play games. It's only the extremely committed, localized or journalists who attend these things. I'm not sure the microcosm necessarily extends outward in terms of reflection of the larger base.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 12-04-2013 at 10:22 PM.
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  8. #128
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  9. #129
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No one denies that their aren't creepers out there Nalano, but what exactly do you propose should be done? Do we exclude women entirely from trade shows? (Because I doubt whether creepers care that a women's a booth babe, female dev or attendee in truth), or do make it abundantly clear for attendees that such behaviour will not be countenanced and encourage women to actively speak up/report it to security so any transgressors can be ejected?
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  10. #130
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Men's actions are the issue, lets ban the women folk. That'll learn 'em and send a good message.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    or do make it abundantly clear for attendees that such behaviour will not be countenanced and encourage women to actively speak up/report it to security so any transgressors can be ejected?
    You do that. But do you see the problem in encouraging a booth model to report creepy behaviour?

  12. #132
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    You do that. But do you see the problem in encouraging a booth model to report creepy behaviour?
    I see you second guessing events.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

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    *blush* I'm flattered by the attention boys, but please let's not make the thread about liddle old me


    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I see you second guessing events.
    Whereas all your posts in this thread have been backed up with empirical evidence and scientifically sound studies?

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I see you second guessing events.
    Now now, you know those poor women can't stand up for themselves. And even if they did they'd probably lose their job.

    Far better that we preemptively put them out of work in the first place.

  15. #135
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Whereas all your posts in this thread have been backed up with empirical evidence and scientifically sound studies?
    You're presuming behaviours and responses Dean and painting them as the inevitable outcome. I'm not denying it's a potential outcome, I just can't accept it's every outcome.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

    Tradition is the tyranny of dead men

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finicky View Post
    Kadayi will remain the worst poster on the interwebs.
    Gifmaster 4000 2014 Year of the Gif

    Their early work was a little too new wave for my tastes....

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by vagabond View Post
    Which is fine if you're you, which on closer inspection appears to be the case, but the apparent aim of all the stuff John is arguing for is not to make you happy, it's to involve more women in the industry and so forth.

    In this particular instance there probably isn't a whole bunch of negatives to taking the proposed action. A bunch of women will have to go and be professionally good looking elsewhere, maybe lose a bit of money.
    So we're going to get more women in the industry by kicking women out of the industry? I see no flaw with this plan at all.

  17. #137
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    A corporate spokesperson is not "in the industry." David Beckham knows fuck-all about how Calvin Klein makes its underwear.

  18. #138
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    Most developers know fuck all about publishing. I wasn't aware one needed to be skilled in every discipline to be part of an industry.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    Most developers know fuck all about publishing. I wasn't aware one needed to be skilled in every discipline to be part of an industry.
    In this instance it is probably correct that the trade show models are members of a separate industry that are contracted for that single event and just as likely to work an automotive show next week as they are a video game convention.

  20. #140
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archonsod View Post
    So we're going to get more women in the industry by kicking women out of the industry? I see no flaw with this plan at all.
    Models aren't engineers. If the only link between you and the car is that you're posing on it, then you weren't in the industry anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    No one denies that their aren't creepers out there Nalano, but what exactly do you propose should be done? Do we exclude women entirely from trade shows? (Because I doubt whether creepers care that a women's a booth babe, female dev or attendee in truth), or do make it abundantly clear for attendees that such behaviour will not be countenanced and encourage women to actively speak up/report it to security so any transgressors can be ejected?
    It's not the creepers, though the creepers are bad enough. It's that everybody bends over backwards to cater to the creepers, lest the creepers feel uncomfortable.

    The difference between a booth babe and a cosplayer, consequently, is that a cosplayer's livelihood isn't tied to being ogled.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

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