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  1. #161
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Why have you jumped from booth babes to women playing games on public servers?

    Public servers are horrible for everyone. I've been called everything under the sun playing a game on public servers. I've had my voice mocked and impersonated by people I don't know so their buddies can laugh at it. But that's besides the point.

    Your generalization is grossly out of proportion. Next you'll be telling me that all gamers wear pocket protectors and glasses. People (or gamers in your case) don't act like idiots to women because "they have zero interaction" with women. Do these people not have mothers, sisters, cousins, neighbours, teachers, co-workers.

    And what in gods name are you talking about with victimizing? Whose he victimizing?
    Last edited by Jesus_Phish; 24-04-2013 at 11:33 AM.
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  2. #162
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Why have you jumped from booth babes to women playing games on public servers?

    Public servers are horrible for everyone. I've been called everything under the sun playing a game on public servers. I've had my voice mocked and impersonated by people I don't know so their buddies can laugh at it. But that's besides the point.

    And what in gods name are you talking about with victimizing? Whose he victimizing?
    Hey JP. He's just pulling the pieces together of the grand conspiracy. It's all connected..we're just too indoctrinated to see the bigger picture.
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  3. #163
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Your fear of actual surveys is endearing
    Your belief that any such survey would yield accurate results doubly so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Man, you're straight out of the 80s aren't you? Gaming has moved on, and I'm not convinced those stereotypes were ever accurate even at the height of their reign.
    If anything, the internet and cell phones have only exacerbated the problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Hey JP. He's just pulling the pieces together of the grand conspiracy. It's all connected..we're just too indoctrinated to see the bigger picture.
    You're right, that's why "How to talk to women" yields 2 billion results, because this is an isolated incident.

  4. #164
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Did you actually just use google search result for this?

    How to talk to women - 1,850,000,000 results
    How to talk to men - 1,620,000,000 results
    How to dance - 2,190,000,000 results
    Can I get pregnant from my dog - 90,000,000

    Clearly dancing and human/canine pregnancy are both issues because google says lots of people searched for it.
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  5. #165
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabrage View Post
    Your belief that any such survey would yield accurate results doubly so.
    Call me crazy but I'm of the opinion that a survey of female gamers is likely to be more accurate regarding female gamers than some increasingly hysterical white guy.

    You're right, that's why "How to talk to women" yields 2 billion results, because this is an isolated incident.
    News flash...talking to women is not an innate talent...

    Maybe you can enlighten us as to how this feeds into the conspiracy?
    Last edited by Kadayi; 24-04-2013 at 12:17 PM.
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  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Why have you jumped from booth babes to women playing games on public servers?

    Public servers are horrible for everyone. I've been called everything under the sun playing a game on public servers. I've had my voice mocked and impersonated by people I don't know so their buddies can laugh at it. But that's besides the point.
    Your profile reveals nothing about you so I'm going to take a guess: are you a straight white male? Because if you are then yes, what you describe is quite besides the point because what you experience pales in comparison to women or any other easily distinguishable minority on a public server. You clearly cannot emapathize with their situation because you seem to think that your own exerperiences are on the same level.

    If you aren't a straight male gamer then I'm kind of shocked that you can be so insensitive.

  7. #167
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterstride View Post
    Your profile reveals nothing about you.
    Given the demographics of this sites readership. It's highly likely you are as well in truth.

    The only person I can recall making out they were in fact female was a transsexual IIRC.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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  8. #168
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterstride View Post
    Your profile reveals nothing about you so I'm going to take a guess: are you a straight white male? Because if you are then yes, what you describe is quite besides the point because what you experience pales in comparison to women or any other easily distinguishable minority on a public server. You clearly cannot emapathize with their situation because you seem to think that your own exerperiences are on the same level.

    If you aren't a straight male gamer then I'm kind of shocked that you can be so insensitive.
    I am a straight male gamer and no I'm not being insensitive or trying to say "But look at me, I can function on it! So it must be fine"

    The point is that public servers are horrible places. They might be more horrible for women or blacks or mexicans or british or gays, but they are in general horrible places for anyone who isn't the aggressor. For everyone that isn't in on the joke, they can be nasty and vile. And they shouldn't be. For anyone. But they are, for everyone.

    While Sabrage manages to suggest women in roles such as booth babes should be banned from an event because of a way they make men act, then to say women get bad treatment on public servers just shows that men and their behaviours are the problem and not women. Should we ban women from public servers because if they use a mic, some 14 year old starts telling her how he wants to do things to her? No, that's bloody stupid, we can all agree. So why do we do the opposite when it's at a con? Why do people turn a blind eye to it and say "oh that woman, she's just encouraging that man".

    I'm all for equality, I'm all for treating everyone the same, I'm aware other people have it worse than me and I can empathise with them as much as I can. But don't start saying I'm "insensitive" or "misunderstanding" of other people just because my views don't match with yours.
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  9. #169
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Why do people turn a blind eye to it and say "oh that woman, she's just encouraging that man".
    Certainly not because they're socially retarded.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Presumption ..again?
    In this case, no, from a family member's dealing with a modelling agency if you must know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Throwing out 20 people acting like frat-bros from the show floor and banning them isn't going to send your show into a downward spiral.
    This is what you're not seeing: it's not about people exhibiting obvious 'frat-bros' behaviour. There's certain stuff that's okay to do with a model and not with an attendee. Obvious actual groping and explicit propositions are going to be a problem either way. But it's more subtle.

    The model with the skimpy tight top that says "Darksiders" on it? She's employed to have you stare at her chest. It's not a nice reality but that's the job. She's employed to put an arm around you and let you hold her by the waist when you get a photo. She doesn't want to, but it's the job. If she's not comfortable with being stared at lasciviously by 100s of strangers and having some light contact, she doesn't do the job. Before you ask Kad, that's basically what the agency said.

    Regular female attendees shouldn't have to put up with that. You're okay with throwing out the frat boys, but are you also okay with throwing out the guys whose gaze lingers a bit too long on a chest, or who put an unwanted hand on the small of a cosplayers back?

    No? I'm not okay with that to be honest, because it barely seems like an issue does it? Except if you're the woman, and it's 100s of guys doing this, it's half the attendees staring at you, it's everyone wanting a photo and thinking that gives them the right to touch you. It's not individual instances of gross misconduct, it's the sum total of 100s of instances of small amounts of objectification, personal space invasion and disrespect. Stuff that you can't throw someone out for because it's 'harmless' but that builds up to making female attendees very uncomfortable.

    And part of that's because of booth models being put there specifically to attract that sort of behaviour.

    If we want to do this by tackling attendee behaviour directly then fine, but that means throwing out half your attendees. Probably you included.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Should we ban women from public servers because if they use a mic, some 14 year old starts telling her how he wants to do things to her? No, that's bloody stupid, we can all agree.
    Okay. Would you agree that we should ban a woman from a public server if she goes in there and talks dirty to the guys, with the express purpose of getting them in a private chat and directing them to her pay-per-view cam site? They should have the freedom to do that right? Even if it's obviously making the experience worse for women that just want to play games?

  12. #172
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    In this case, no, from a family member's dealing with a modelling agency if you must know.
    and that's all situations?
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  13. #173
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    The model with the skimpy tight top that says "Darksiders" on it? She's employed to have you stare at her chest. It's not a nice reality but that's the job. She's employed to put an arm around you and let you hold her by the waist when you get a photo. She doesn't want to, but it's the job. If she's not comfortable with being stared at lasciviously by 100s of strangers and having some light contact, she doesn't do the job. Before you ask Kad, that's basically what the agency said.
    You make a lot of assumptions here, without even thinking that some of these women might like getting stared at, might like the attention being given to them, might actually want to do these things. You're saying your family member was basically told these are the things that would/will happen and if she's happen enough she can do the job, otherwise she can choose not to do the job, same as every other job. Nobody held a gun to her and forced her into it. I can work at a garage pumping gas, but I don't think I'd enjoy that and the money probably doesn't make it worth it so I don't.

    Regular female attendees shouldn't have to put up with that. You're okay with throwing out the frat boys, but are you also okay with throwing out the guys whose gaze lingers a bit too long on a chest, or who put an unwanted hand on the small of a cosplayers back?
    It's not binary. It's not black and white. There's such a thing as asking someone to avert their eyes, to stop staring, to not touch you. I don't like being touched in bars. You know what I do when a random drunkard puts him arm around me because I'm obviously to him his new best buddy? I slide his arm off and tell him not to put his arm on me. If someone wanted to take a picture of me and I didn't want to be touched, I'd tell them. I've done it before while at charity events (zombie walks). I've had people ask can they bite me and I've told them for obvious reasons, no but if they want to make it look like it that's cool, just don't actually put your mouth or teeth on me.

    No? I'm not okay with that to be honest, because it barely seems like an issue does it? Except if you're the woman, and it's 100s of guys doing this, it's half the attendees staring at you, it's everyone wanting a photo and thinking that gives them the right to touch you. It's not individual instances of gross misconduct, it's the sum total of 100s of instances of small amounts of objectification, personal space invasion and disrespect. Stuff that you can't throw someone out for because it's 'harmless' but that builds up to making female attendees very uncomfortable.
    I can understand how for someone it might get annoying after a while to be stopped every few minutes to be asked for a picture and to have someone put their arm around you, but honestly, it's not difficult to say "ok sure, but please don't touch me" or even better yet "no sorry, I haven't the time".

    And here's where I just say it. People will stare. If you dress like a Marvel or DC super hero character like Power Girl or Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Black Widow or Psylock you are going to get stared at. By men, by women, by attendees, by other cos players, by guys and gals working the booths, by security, by everyone. People stare. This is a thing that happens. People will also want a picture with you if your costume is rather good. Take that as a compliment. It either means you're very good looking or you've pulled off a brilliant costume. If you have a problem with people touching you, make them aware of it. But be prepared that you're going into an event with thousands of people dressed up as a character who was probably drawn with sex appeal. Stand up for yourself. Accept that people will stare, set your limits and tell people when they've crossed them or better yet don't give them the chance. If you're that uncomfortable with dressing up sexy at a con and you still want to dress up sexy, do it at home, do it at a party with friends. Don't do it with seventy thousand strangers. I'm sure many boyfriends, girlfriends, wives and husbands wouldn't mind their SO dressing up for them.

    And part of that's because of booth models being put there specifically to attract that sort of behaviour.

    If we want to do this by tackling attendee behaviour directly then fine, but that means throwing out half your attendees. Probably you included.
    I think people and women in particular should be able to dress up as whatever character they want at cons and I wish they didn't have to put up with getting shit. But they're going to get shit with booth babes around or not. The woman who went dressed as Black Cat to NYCC last year and ended up on blog sites complaining, wasn't the victim of her events because of some booth babes making all the guys go crazy and think it was ok. She was the victim because those dudes were assholes in the first place.

    Also, probably me included nothing. I've zero interest in getting pictures taking with booth babes or cosplayers. Both just annoyed me at cons because they create lines and blockades in the middle of aisles all over the show floor as they line up for pictures. Get the hell out of my way Deadpool number 5867, I've only got ten minutes to get over to booth 2030 and tell Jim Zub how much of an amazing writer he is.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Okay. Would you agree that we should ban a woman from a public server if she goes in there and talks dirty to the guys, with the express purpose of getting them in a private chat and directing them to her pay-per-view cam site? They should have the freedom to do that right? Even if it's obviously making the experience worse for women that just want to play games?
    Sorry, but here again you're saying that because one women does something, all men are allowed thing all women are like that. More importantly what she's doing is probably against the EULA (selling/advertising goods or services) anyway, so she shouldn't be doing it. Booth babes and sex line workers are not the same thing.
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  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You make a lot of assumptions here, without even thinking that some of these women might like getting stared at, might like the attention being given to them, might actually want to do these things.
    I'm not saying there's any problem with them doing the job, just they're expected to put up with it regardless. They're making that choice. The problem being that they then encourage men to act the same way towards regular female attendees who haven't made that choice. They encourage that sort of behaviour.

    I can understand how for someone it might get annoying after a while to be stopped every few minutes to be asked for a picture and to have someone put their arm around you
    Then this discussion shouldn't go any further. You recognize the problem, you've experienced it yourself. You don't like being touched in bars. This happens what, once or twice an evening? And you assert yourself and tell them not to. Good for you. Now, if it happened about once a minute, would you keep going back to that bar? Or just not bother and go somewhere else?

    And here's where I just say it. People will stare. If you dress like a Marvel or DC super hero character like Power Girl or Poison Ivy, Catwoman, Black Widow or Psylock you are going to get stared at.
    Indeed. But if you think this just happens to cosplayers then check out the link on RPS yesterday for the GDC talk and see how this stuff happens to normally dressed female developers and representatives at these events too.

    Sorry, but here again you're saying that because one women does something, all men are allowed thing all women are like that. More importantly what she's doing is probably against the EULA (selling/advertising goods or services) anyway, so she shouldn't be doing it. Booth babes and sex line workers are not the same thing.
    Isn't it being against the EULA the equivalent of cons banning booth babes? Surely it shouldn't be against the EULA because of the same argument? We're talking about banning B, I say A is like B, you say it's not because A is banned already. Effectively you're agreeing with me.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    and that's all situations?
    No but I've proved one situation where it's true and you're on zero for it being false so ball is your court buddy :D

  16. #176
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    No but I've proved one situation where it's true and you're on zero for it being false so ball is your court buddy :D
    You haven't 'proven' anything, you've made an assertion (which I'm to take on face value) and claimed it as an absolute certainty every time. As I said earlier in the thread I don't doubt dubious stuff happens, but I also don't think that it's the case every time.
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  17. #177
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    I'm not agreeing with you because I said A and B are different. A is not like B. Booth babes are not like sex line workers. Booth babes are an extension of advertising. If we're going to ban advertising at conventions we may as well ban conventions and trade expos. They're the newest thing since having big screen tvs in your booth. They're like paying OCC to make you a horrible looking motorbike to draw attention to your booth. They are advertising for that booth, at that show, which is essentially an advertising expo.

    Sex line workers are trying to pull customers by advertising yes, but not in a medium where advertising is allowed. If they want to advertise they have to go do it in the back of lads mags and red top newspapers.

    These normally dressed women at the trade shows, who are being approached for pictures etc. What makes them so different from say CliffyB if he was to attend shows? People will ask him for a picture, in which the person will probably try shake his hand or throw their arm around his shoulder.
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  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    You haven't 'proven' anything, you've made an assertion (which I'm to take on face value) and claimed it as an absolute certainty every time. As I said earlier in the thread I don't doubt dubious stuff happens, but I also don't think that it's the case every time.
    Not every time. It doesn't need to be every time. Just enough to make women feel uncomfortable at cons. Which we know happens through women telling us that they are uncomfortable at cons.

  19. #179
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Not every time. It doesn't need to be every time. Just enough to make women feel uncomfortable at cons. Which we know happens through women telling us that they are uncomfortable at cons.
    Here's a thought...let's have a survey of women gamers to find out exactly how they feel about things.
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  20. #180
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Here's a thought...let's have a survey of women gamers to find out exactly how they feel about things.
    BURN HIM!!! BURN HIM HE TRIES TO PROGRESS THE DISCUSSION (I wrote this in all caps, but RPS is probably going to be a killjoy and make it be not all caps)
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