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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpier View Post
    Nope, XM98 works very well, but the parallax is probably strictly better for sniping, but not 10x maybe 1.2x
    As far as I can see the semi-auto and bolt action rifles just fill different roles. The bolt actions are not so good midrange, mainly due to the need to constantly work the mechanism. Mid-range mostly means that there is a fight going on, and any aware enemy will either move to much for the long time in between shots to be practical, or will hide asap. And enemies in combat move a lot, so headshots are tricky. However, at long range they are far superior. Not so hot on suppressors, I have to admit - the higher bullet speed without it helps compensating enemy movement, and you should be sitting somewhere where the enemy can't easily notice the trails anyways. That means behind or at least to the side of the enemy.
    The semi-autos are crap at distance, but shine at mid-range. Stay behind your line of friendlies, use a suppressor and start ripping. The faster fire will help you get kills, if you do not get a headshot you can just shoot again, and in a combat you will find enough hurt enemies to even get a lot of single hit kills.

  2. #82
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    As regards the Tactical Giraffe thing - just learned about it during play today, and as far as I can see it works beautifully. Seems like the best compromise for everyone. Thumbs up !

  3. #83
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    My thought regarding spotters is rather simple. Sitting as an infil is not very fun unless you are a very good sniper. We should have one of those again when Ch1ll1e (dunno if you remember him) returns soon, after being PC-less for some time. Otherwise I think we should rely on LAs (light assaults) for the spotting duty.

    This is an example of a situation that I thought up.

    Goal - Tower breach/pre-secure of tower before main platoon arrives

    4 HA or 2 MAX + 2 HA, 2 LA, 4 medics, one infiltrator, one engineer. HAs/MAX/medics/engineer breach A. LAs circle the tower and outlying points looking for defenders, flipping B and C. Infiltrator hacks out sunderer and hides it. Engineer or someone else hacks out a second sundy to place in the garage.

    LAs job is recon and circling around looking for enemies, if none are there we spread. We then await main platoon to arrive and hold the base where we can join the fight if there is one.

    Other examples of LAs as recon is in bio labs where they are invaluable as rooftop spotters.

    edit: Oh and I didn't mean to be dismissive of the CAS idea. I think two libs + a TACGIR infantry squad could hold of a much larger force then themselves and that could work excellent. It requires good lib pilots/gunners though that can pull a heavily certed lib each.
    This was an excellent post! Why did I not see that before? I like the idea of having LAs as roaming spotters, taking out enemies, yes, but primarioly making the squad aware from where the enemies are coming. Good plan!



    And also, I wrote an AAR on tonight's inaugural ops night here. It was very good, though rather improvised on my end. Hadn't thought I'd need to lead anything at all, seeing a few slots free in Bravo, but it turned out alright in the end. Good job everyone!

  4. #84
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    Thanks once more Ridebird, Esoteric, MrEclectic for setting this up and everyone else for taking part. Once we got the surprisingly large force in order, it was striking how quickly and tightly we rolled down the west side of the map, especially considering it was the first trial of this format. We had some amazing fast, brutal action, even the final failed assault against Indar Bay was fun in its own way (despite NC resorting to mine / C4 spam tactics).

    One thing mentioned in the debrief that I'd like to post as a reminder, was the idea, if we do roll with a dedicated PL, of them being in a squad with players running as dedicated support assets - for recce, airlift, advance work etc. - and possibly anti air and anti ground air assets, if we find that a dedicated air only squad doesn't work out.

  5. #85
    Activated Node Frengler's Avatar
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    I missed all the fun. Was on for 30 minutes during the formation of TACGIR but was in a rotten mood so ended up logging off instead. Had wanted to make the air squad and see if we could get a couple of Libs flying around that could be used for air cover during attacks and defenses but I guess I'll have to keep that for another day. Maybe I need to coordinate with that other guy who's been enthusiastic about dedicated air? Loki-something was it?
    "Time is a companion, travelling with us on the journey of life, to remind us to cherish each moment as it will never come again. What we leave behind is not as important as how we lived."

  6. #86
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by protorp View Post
    ...
    Yes, good, thanks! Cross-posted this into the TACGIR Development Discussion thread, to collect all of the feedback in one place.

  7. #87
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Bumping this thread back to life, so that the newly arrived can read of the conception of TACGIR (Tactical Giraffes). The original post of this thread describes the main point of TACGIR pretty well, although some of the details are a bit out of date.

    The main points are:
    • TACGIR means tactical squad play
    • TACGIR means one squad per channel, possibly two
    • TACGIR means coordination between squads (fix-and-flank tactics etc)
    • TACGIR does NOT mean super serious, no-banter, fascist un-fun
    • Anyone who prefers tactical play can ask for it at any time, without having to volunteer to lead themselves. If there's anyone who feels like taking the TACGIR lead, they will appreciate you asking for it so they don't have to!

  8. #88
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Bump.

    I tried to suggest tactical play the other night after an alert.

    The biggest thing that stood in the way was that few people seemed to know what that meant & there was worry over shortcuts in Mumble.

    A simple "How to setup for TACGIR" guide would be nice. Something we can post a link to in Mumble. Things like starting a new platoon with squad leaders & ROs and anyone wanting tatcical play joining it, then moving all those people in the new platoon to the correct channels and then a link to the specific bit of the Mumble guide that walks through RO bindings.

    We also need to talk about & organise the TACGIR setup so new people know what we are talking about. "Something similar to the setup during the Call to Arms" helps get across what we mean...
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  9. #89
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yesh, a good idea. I can try to arrange something, if no one else wants to, but it will not be tonight.

  10. #90
    Activated Node Socroft's Avatar
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    I will post about this in more detail when I have more time but just a quick one here to say I will happily lead the TACGIR equivalent of an air squad if such is ever called for. It went well ok tonight (see AAR at http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/foru...l=1#post303847) and I'd like to do it more often. We have lots to work on though, tis true.

  11. #91
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    From the top, with feeling this time:

    TACGIR is about playing in a semicohesive and not too haphazard a manner. It is not about just avoiding the chatter of the main platoon, when the individual noise tolerance treshold has been exceeded. Also, it is TACGIR, not STRATGIR. Tactical, not strategic. The emphasis is on small unit actions and tactics. Where should we go next is a question that does not concern a single TACGIR squad. That is the PL's decision. What we do when we get there is the only concern of a TACGIR squad.

    What we do:
    • Stick together
    • Cover each other
    • Call out contacts
    • Coordinate attacks from at least two directions, ie fix'em and flank'em


    What we want to achieve:
    • Encouraging everyone to participate in comms chatter, just by the less cluttered nature of the setup
    • Learn from each other, appreciate each other's contribution to the team and to the game
    • Better coordination and communication
    • Pay a bit more attention to what works and what doesn't, so it becomes intuitive, and we learn to take initiative
    • Eventually, how to coordinate and communicate tactically among multiple squads and/or platoons.


    We don't normally play like this, so none of us knows exactly how to do it. Of course there will be suggestions and discussions about how to do the above, even during gameplay. TACGIR is about finding ways to adapt our game into a more focused playstyle, so experimentation, trial and error (lots of it) are in order and in fact encouraged.

    When in a TACGIR squad, take time. Lots of it and as often as possible. Do not react to situations. Have a plan, any plan, even a bad one. It will be improved upon by the suggestions and coordinated actions of the rest of the unit, if it is explained to them. This is not casual, which is anything but, where we order and are ordered to redeploy from one place to the next constantly and immediately. Take time to appreciate the situation on the ground. Usually there is more time than we think. Order people to wait, rally them, and then order them to execute the plan. If it fails, it doesn't matter. Take some time off afterwards, debrief, and discuss what went wrong and possible ways to rectify that. Of course, this doesn't mean that everything should be an endless debate and people take their sweet time.

    Making time:
    • Give people some time to gather to a rally point and switch classes, if needed. Depending on the situation, this may be from as little as 10 seconds to minutes. Nevertheless, give them even that little
    • During this time, tell them what you want them to do.
    • If time permits, discuss. Someone makes a simple suggestion, such as "why don't we also scout the west flank?" Evaluate, accept or reject. "No, we don't have the manpower". "Yes, good suggestion". If time permits, explain.
    • Execute, paying attention to tactical communication to evaluate how it progresses
    • If it fails, adapt according to the info gathered during the previous step
    • If it succeeds, evaluate what is your next step
    • Rinse and repeat


    Squad members have two primary obligations:
    • Relaying tactical information in a concise manner. "Contact/multiple contacts, Delta 5". If time permits, give more information "Infiltrator/MAX inside the building" "Armour and infantry from the West", etc
    • Covering each other and maintaining perimeter security. None of us should worry about our backs. Stick together, but not too close. Cover appertures and approaches. If someone is doing a support action, such as healing or repairing, do not stare at them. Cover them. Especially when healing. Usually you are right between the Combat Medic and the enemy. The Combat Medic cannot shoot at the enemy, because you are in the way.


    Squad leaders have only one:
    • Making sure that squad members play according to the above


    Finally, TACGIR is mainly about fun. Enjoying the game, having more space and time in the comms for more people to participate in banter, doing things that we don't regularly do, such as vehicle play, infantry maneuvers, etc. And generally enjoying the epic scale of the game, and appreciating each other's playstyle, contribution, and general awesomeness, with as little frustration as possible.


    PS:
    EsotericReverie and I will always be available to help you. But as far as I'm concerned, do not expect me to constantly lead the thing. I SL, PL and liaise with TVA at least 3 times a week, and during the last 5 days I've been acting in an officer role at least once per day. I'd be more than happy though to help and discuss, and act as your XO.

    PPS: I'm no tactical expert. I am, as I've repeatedly said, an FPS noob. Still, because the experience of evolving from terrible to plain bad is recent, I have come to notice some things that don't work, and a few that might do. TACGIR is about sharing such experience among ourselves, and perhaps ease the learning curve of this game even more.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 21-05-2013 at 09:52 AM.

  12. #92
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yes! Good that you bring this up again.

    I'd really love to try this approach for real, sometime. I personally tend to miss the deliberation part, usually just hurrying off to the next objective without a clearly formulated plan that everyone understands and is on board with. It often ends in a big mess, where we perform sub-par simply because we trip over each other with little sense of what we're really trying to do besides killing the bad guys and capping the base. I should probably read this and my own guides to SLs through once or twice before taking on TACGIR lead next.

    I also really like your suggestion (in some other thread) to run a tactical play (TACGIR) training session and then run with that setup during prime time for a full week. Just to get some practice, and spread some of the leading and tactical awareness skills that some of us have in abundance around to the rest of the outfit. Shame the tactical comms training didn't happen yesterday. But then again, that is at least one level above what you point out as the primary objective of TACGIR (squad-level tactical play, rather than platoon-level strategic play).

  13. #93
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    I'm finding myself with more motivation for squad play of late but I haven't always felt like that and can see that 'imposing' it for a week could be a turn off for some. I think squad play requires a certain amount of waiting as MrEclectic points out so it's best to only have people who's heart is really in it. Perhaps the compromise solution is to aim to have one or two TacGir squads going all the time? I'd personally prefer that because if someone wants to be playing with the rest of the outfit but doesn't really want squad play then when they get someone pestering them to redeploy or change class they could get irritated (and the rest of the squad will be annoyed at waiting for them).

    What I'd like to see (and will try to offer when next I SL in a squad play format) is more specific 'manouevers'. Just simple things like taking a door way effectively, Gal dropping precisely and sustaining an assault with medics rather than respawns. As with any practice it wouldn't be the main performance in itself but will lead to it eventually. Plus it should be satisfying to pull off these little goals and work as a team.

  14. #94
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Very sensible! I'd be very happy to see us push for having tactical squads running for a whole week, alongside the regular play. And setting smaller goals seems very reasonable.

  15. #95
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyTrooper View Post
    What I'd like to see (and will try to offer when next I SL in a squad play format) is more specific 'manouevers'. Just simple things like taking a door way effectively, Gal dropping precisely and sustaining an assault with medics rather than respawns. As with any practice it wouldn't be the main performance in itself but will lead to it eventually. Plus it should be satisfying to pull off these little goals and work as a team.
    Grunt Ksempac ready to follow you Sir !

    I'm sad we only use SL during Thursday nights, because on casual nights, even the so-called TACGIR platoon has only one PL giving a few orders.

  16. #96
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Yeah Ksempac, that is a shame indeed. The original plan was for the TACGIR squad(s) playing alongside the main group on casual nights was meant to focus on just these things that MrEclectic pointed out. The plan was to have the PL actually be someone from the "big group", giving targets to the TACGIR group, letting them focus on the squad play, leaving strategic assessments to someone else.

    In practice, we've been too occupied with the strategic layer (where to go, how to "win the game", hurrying off to the next target) to be able to focus on the squad-play that we wanted to learn and improve. So, if this is to work in the future, we need to make sure that TACGIR SLs do't need to think of the strategy layer at all. Someone needs to direct them. If that is done by casual PL (sitting in the RO channel) or by TACGIR ROs (through dictatorship or democracy) matters less, but TACGIR SLs need to be free to focus on the tactical play and planning. I think.

    We've been a bit sloppy when starting uo TACGIR play. I believe we just need to think of two things when kicking off a TACGIR squad, that have sometimes been missing:
    1) Make sure that there is someone dictating the overall strategy (casual PL or TACGIR PL/ROs).
    2) Take some time off before moving off to the next target, as MrEclectic says. Think things through, get kitted out appropriately, load up and then move out, ready for the next engagement.


    I'm very happy that this has been brought up again, and I'm hoping that we can get the ball rolling properly!
    Last edited by EsotericReverie; 20-05-2013 at 01:26 PM.

  17. #97
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    Very sensible! I'd be very happy to see us push for having tactical squads running for a whole week, alongside the regular play. And setting smaller goals seems very reasonable.
    Please.

    The major point of TACGIR, to me, seemed to be to provide tactical squad-based play on any given night, regardless of what else the outfit is doing.

    I think we probably need a "training" session for TACGIR where we properly introduce it and, more importantly, make sure we have a larger pool of people from whom to draw from for RO & SL duties.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  18. #98
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    I'd actually suggest that until we collectively feel that we've got the squad play thing 'sorted' we disconnect TacGir entirely from the main group. Even having a PL/RO in your ear saying "move to next base" is not what you want when you're trying to learn how to coordinate the sequence of smoke grenades, NV goggles, entry, revive, advance, whatever. I've experienced some squads making a good effort at squad play but having their flow interrupted by the PL who (in good faith and probably unknowingly) pulled them out and sent them elsewhere. To my mind TacGir is training until we're more fluent with TacGir.

    Is disconnecting entirely too disruptive/unwelcome?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by WallyTrooper View Post
    I'd actually suggest that until we collectively feel that we've got the squad play thing 'sorted' we disconnect TacGir entirely from the main group. Even having a PL/RO in your ear saying "move to next base" is not what you want when you're trying to learn how to coordinate the sequence of smoke grenades, NV goggles, entry, revive, advance, whatever. I've experienced some squads making a good effort at squad play but having their flow interrupted by the PL who (in good faith and probably unknowingly) pulled them out and sent them elsewhere. To my mind TacGir is training until we're more fluent with TacGir.

    Is disconnecting entirely too disruptive/unwelcome?
    This is a good point. It doesn't help that the Tacgir leader is often significantly more confident and experienced than the main platoon leader.

  20. #100
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfftble View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by WallyTrooper View Post
    I'd actually suggest that until we collectively feel that we've got the squad play thing 'sorted' we disconnect TacGir entirely from the main group. Even having a PL/RO in your ear saying "move to next base" is not what you want when you're trying to learn how to coordinate the sequence of smoke grenades, NV goggles, entry, revive, advance, whatever. I've experienced some squads making a good effort at squad play but having their flow interrupted by the PL who (in good faith and probably unknowingly) pulled them out and sent them elsewhere. To my mind TacGir is training until we're more fluent with TacGir.

    Is disconnecting entirely too disruptive/unwelcome?
    This is a good point. It doesn't help that the Tacgir leader is often significantly more confident and experienced than the main platoon leader.
    Ambivalent about this. On one hand it is a good point. The Casual PL doesn't know what to do with a TACGIR squad, and in fact TACGIR doesn't know what to do with itself. As Wally correctly points out, for the time being it should be an extended training mode.

    On the other hand, it is paramount that TACGIR remains focused on developing tactics and fostering teamwork. Making strategic calls is detrimental to that effort.

    A compromise would be that the PL gives an order, the SL follows it, but they have the option of modifying it, or even ignoring it. The PL may order for instance TACGIR to assist in assaulting a tower, and the SL may reply that they will commence their assault 2 minutes later, going for point B. Furthermore, the SL's order to the TACGIR squad should be something along the lines of "secure cap point B, and then establish a perimeter. 1-4 up the stairs, 5-9 through that door, 10-12 on reserve, in the meantime covering the space between B and the tower. 4 and 8, smoke 'em, 2 and 7 stun them. Call out your throws, and everyone hit at once. Maintain lines of fire".
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 20-05-2013 at 02:28 PM.

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