Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 237
  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,645
    What's wrong with our economies? People who are essential of running the core of the contemporary society be underpaid like this? I just cannot imagine these days without computer.

    But that says IT workers are too highly replacable (not the IT skill itself, but sadly the workers). Is it really that easy to become a programmer?

    Just a joke, next time when you programme the IT infrastructure of your employing firm, try make it imperfect with some fatal bugs only you the creator can locate, then make the firm totally dependent on it, so that...... well, you are clever that don't need me to teach you what to do next. Haha~ I suddenly realise that I have the potential to be a devil.

    Wait a minute, is that why MS Windows is so buggy as an OS......

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,197
    We live in a world now where most jobs i've seen need 1 year experience and to get that experience you need to whore yourself out for free and even then there might be someone out there better then you...

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,645
    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    We live in a world now where most jobs i've seen need 1 year experience and to get that experience you need to whore yourself out for free and even then there might be someone out there better then you...
    You mean those job advertisements? Dont mind about that. From my experience, if they write "1 Yr exp. required", it's pretty much implying that they also welcome fresh grad, they just don't want to put this open secret in black and write.

    I know because last year I was assigned to screen some job applicants (just usual clerical work, nothing special for me) and was instructed to keep all fresh applicants, just highlight them to remain my bosses that those boys / girls would like accept lower pay.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,174
    I try not to play games anymore unless the back of the box says it was made by a 60+ year old mother of 3+ children.
    (secret full disclosure: I am lying)
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Berzee View Post
    I try not to play games anymore unless the back of the box says it was made by a 60+ year old mother of 3+ children.
    (secret full disclosure: I am lying)
    I only play games by non-white married foster mothers

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    There is a fairly clear vocational split at the moment between "Do something you enjoy and get by" or "Do something you don't enjoy for plenty money", although I'd say the majority are in the "Do something you don't enjoy for enough money to survive". It's not right of course, but I think the expectation that you should be able to something you enjoy while being paid good money for it and also maintaining a social life is a fantasy which has no grounding in pragmatism whatever, and probably never has done either. While an understandable aspiration I find it curious that people believe it should be something that is attainable.
    It's not realistic to think you'll always be able to do something you really enjoy for money, but I think it's quite reasonable for anyone to expect and even demand a social life outside work. There's more to life than making other people rich.
    Sometimes I write things

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,283
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    It's not realistic to think you'll always be able to do something you really enjoy for money, but I think it's quite reasonable for anyone to expect and even demand a social life outside work. There's more to life than making other people rich.
    Indeed. But there are plenty, probably the majority of jobs, which do allow this.

  8. #48
    Yes. And there's no reason all jobs can't allow it as well, except maybe emergency services with staff shortages. When they don't, it's culture, not physical necessity.
    Sometimes I write things

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sonson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    1,283
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    Yes. And there's no reason all jobs can't allow it as well, except maybe emergency services with staff shortages. When they don't, it's culture, not physical necessity.
    Oh, no arguments there. I mean there are some jobs I'd say but the ones we're talking about here aren't one of them. However, that culture is there for reasons which are understandable, if not morally justifiable, and so I think for the time being they are the considerations that need to be recognised as just part of working in videogames for the most part. I turned down a job for a big publisher for that reason in fact. I love videogames and would like to work in them, but not at the expense of my family life and the option to actually play them a lot. That's just a grown up decision rather than some sort of horrible unjust state of affairs as far as I'm concerned.

    Assuming Kickstarter sees games deliver without Big Publishers attached then that could be happier way forward of course, and I hope it is.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    This all makes me wonder how many "AAA" game devs are unionized. Are there any?
    The software industry is notoriously lacking in labor representation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    There is a fairly clear vocational split at the moment between "Do something you enjoy and get by" or "Do something you don't enjoy for plenty money", although I'd say the majority are in the "Do something you don't enjoy for enough money to survive". It's not right of course, but I think the expectation that you should be able to something you enjoy while being paid good money for it and also maintaining a social life is a fantasy which has no grounding in pragmatism whatever, and probably never has done either. While an understandable aspiration I find it curious that people believe it should be something that is attainable.
    Putting a price on "doing something you enjoy" is just as bullshit as the indentured servitude of internships.

    Not that it matters: The true economic climate is that without the leverage of organized labor, there's no particular impetus for employers to pay anybody anywhere near a decent wage for decent hours. Why worry about a 35-40 hour workweek with a living wage when you can just burn out flunkies like used tissue and rehire fresh college grads who "should be grateful to have a job in the industry?"

    I currently work for a software company where the turnover is high, we get a constant influx of bright-eyed naifs from local technical institutes, and the last time the senior techs tried unionizing, everybody got fired. I spoke with the current veterans, and they report that this sort of purge has happened about three times in the last twelve years - in fact, a healthy income is a good sign that you're not going to be employed for very much longer here.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by sonson View Post
    That's just a grown up decision rather than some sort of horrible unjust state of affairs as far as I'm concerned.
    Fair enough. Though it can probably be both :) I hope people working in the industry start organizing at some point, but obviously that's not going to be everyone's fight.

    It's really too bad. I know someone who had to turn down a writing job with a game dev when it became clear the lifestyle didn't suit him. He's a bit older, with a family and a life and no more patience for letting his job totally define him... all things which have helped make him a better writer than most people working on games right now, I'd say.
    Sometimes I write things

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,174
    The software industry is notoriously lacking in labor representation.
    This is one of the reasons I like working in the software industry. =)

    a healthy income is a good sign that you're not going to be employed for very much longer here.
    I must work in the undesirable, boring segment of the software industry then, because I haven't had unhealthy-income problems OR replaced-by-giddy-youths problems.
    Last edited by Berzee; 17-04-2013 at 05:40 PM.
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  13. #53
    I honestly don't understand it when people say things like that. Whenever I've worked in unionized environments, all it's meant is that I got slightly better wages and benefits than my non-unionized counterparts. What's the downside of that supposed to be?
    Sometimes I write things

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    9,917
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    I honestly don't understand it when people say things like that. Whenever I've worked in unionized environments, all it's meant is that I got slightly better wages and benefits than my non-unionized counterparts. What's the downside of that supposed to be?
    Kneejerk "damn socialists" response, in my experience, fostered from a longstanding NewsCorp campaign demonizing "too large" pensions and step structures.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,174
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnerMcCaffrey View Post
    I honestly don't understand it when people say things like that. Whenever I've worked in unionized environments, all it's meant is that I got slightly better wages and benefits than my non-unionized counterparts. What's the downside of that supposed to be?
    I prefer to be affiliated with the smallest possible number of official organizations in my life. =P

    I can understand the uses of labor representation in lots of situations, but for my particular situation, I've already independently secured what I feel are quite fair wages and benefits. Joining up with an organization to try and get more than that, when I have struck a satisfactory bargain already, would be needless discontent. I'm uncomfortable with the implication that I should always try to get more than I have without stopping to ask if I'm being treated fairly already.

    That said, unions could be handy if you work for someone terrible and corrupt (like, say, the bad guy in Stacking). I don't mind the existence of unions per se, as long as I'm allowed to not be in one. =)

    [Nalano, let me know if you want me to come back and edit this post so it just says "rawr pinko grbl muh" so as to improve the flow of conversation.]

    Addendum: I also prefer playing MMOs guildless though, just chatting with people who happen to be hunting in the same area, grouping with random strangers according to my whimsy. Such idiosyncrasies no doubt influence my predelictions, beyond where I would end up by principles alone.
    Last edited by Berzee; 17-04-2013 at 06:31 PM.
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,331
    Well said berzee.

    I think one problem on the Union issue is that too many seem to feel "By default, everything should be unionized" or "By default, nothing should be unionized" rather than considering it on a case by case basis and realizing that many of the things Unions really were great for (workers rights and what not), at least in the US, have reached "acceptable" levels after years of struggle. Yes, there are still lots of major issues, but that is generally on a state/employer by state/employer basis.


    Also, I definitely consider myself fortunate. I enjoy research in the field of computer engineering and am pretty gosh darned good at it if I do say so myself, so I actually DO get to do something I enjoy for fairly good moneys. So suck it :p
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Berzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    2,174
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Well said berzee.
    Thanks buddy! Your version sounds probably more well-balanced and informed than what I said. I will append it to my opinion immediately.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato
    I enjoy research in the field of computer engineering and am pretty gosh darned good at it if I do say so myself, so I actually DO get to do something I enjoy for fairly good moneys. So suck it :p
    *crestfallen, trudges back to the JSP mines*
    Last edited by Berzee; 17-04-2013 at 06:41 PM.
    Support for my all-pepperjack-cheese food bank charity drive has been lukewarm at best.

  18. #58
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    408
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Well said berzee.

    I think one problem on the Union issue is that too many seem to feel "By default, everything should be unionized" or "By default, nothing should be unionized" rather than considering it on a case by case basis and realizing that many of the things Unions really were great for (workers rights and what not), at least in the US, have reached "acceptable" levels after years of struggle. Yes, there are still lots of major issues, but that is generally on a state/employer by state/employer basis.


    Also, I definitely consider myself fortunate. I enjoy research in the field of computer engineering and am pretty gosh darned good at it if I do say so myself, so I actually DO get to do something I enjoy for fairly good moneys. So suck it :p
    Wait what? "Acceptable levels"? The US has notoriously bad worker protection compared to other industrialized nations, with some of the worst job protection, work hours and less guaranteed annual leave than Japan. Not that it's all roses and sunshine over here in damn socialist Europe, but at least we still have some influential unions that actually have the power to do something against the erosion of labor rights that happened over the last decades, even if it mostly means slowing it down a bit.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,331
    Quote Originally Posted by Subatomic View Post
    Wait what? "Acceptable levels"? The US has notoriously bad worker protection compared to other industrialized nations, with some of the worst job protection, work hours and less guaranteed annual leave than Japan. Not that it's all roses and sunshine over here in damn socialist Europe, but at least we still have some influential unions that actually have the power to do something against the erosion of labor rights that happened over the last decades, even if it mostly means slowing it down a bit.
    Don't get me wrong, I definitely agree it can and should be tweaked, but a lot of that isn't so much "We need unions to protect us" and more "We need advocacy groups to push legislature". And while that is a function of a Union, it isn't the primary purpose and the legacy of Unions may do more harm than good in some cases (it makes for an easy target, at the very least).

    But there is also the issue of the culture. For the most part, the US is a culture full of people who, on some level, believe in "The American Dream" of "If I work my ass off, good things will happen". Now, that is CLEARLY a load of crap for the vast majority of people, but it is something that gets drilled into us from an early age. Whereas Europe (or at least France) has a culture of "I want my vacation days and I deserve to take a break". A few french graduate students I know basically take month long vacations 2-3 times per year (I poop you not). And while I suspect (hope) that is considered excessive by French culture, I also acknwoeldge that it IS a cultural thing. I look at that and say "Holy crap, do you ever do any work?". They look at me and say "Sacre bleu, do you ever take a break?"

    Like I said, there are definitely still a lot of problems, but for the vast majority of workers: The days of "I am not in a Union, my employer is going to rape and sodomize me" are gone. Not all, but a significant percentage. Mainly because Unions HAVE pushed legislature and fought in the past to get us where we are now.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,454
    Quote Originally Posted by Berzee View Post
    I try not to play games anymore unless the back of the box says it was made by a 60+ year old mother of 3+ children.
    (secret full disclosure: I am lying)
    Way to miss the arguments? I thought people were talking about bringing in better working conditions, not positive discrimination.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •