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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Lightbulb [VS] TACGIR Development Discussion

    Starting a new thread, to try to contain most of the discussion and development of our TACGIR play in one location, without polluting After Action Reports or the TACGIR Introduction thread.


    So, first night with the gang yesterday! AAR is here.

    These were the responses to the report. Could we continue the discussion on any future improvements here?


    Quote Originally Posted by zekone View Post
    I had loooots of fun this evening, ROing for Bravo squad. Took me a while to get into the role, but I certainly enjoyed the hectic pace. From my aspect, I felt a bit useless to my squad, as I was focused more on ROing, but I'm not sure whether that's a common thing for RO's or just because I was new to the role. I also had a bit of trouble picking out RO and PL chatter over the squad chatter, though I don't know if there's anything to do to help with that (or even if RO's will continue to be useful if we end up doing two pairs of SL's in joint communication).

    Many thanks to Eso for PLing, and MrEclectic for being very supportive of me in my first time ROing!
    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    P

    I've also found it difficult to listen to both sets of chatter and then passing on the message to the SL and it being heard.

    I was only on at the beginning when things were still a bit hectic but I thought that squads could have worked more closely together. It felt like while we were working on the same objective we were just zerging really. There wasn't any cohesive squad movement, covering each other etc. Also, when more than one squad was at an objective everyone just kind of got jumbled amongst each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Harsh, but kind of true. I tried to keep my squad moving in parallel to the other two, constantly harassing Zekone to ask what they were up to. And, btw, Zekone, you were crucial.

    Next setup I think we have to plan it a bit more, and also perhaps not use ROs. Take a slower pacing. Squad cohesion was excellent, and that showed on how we steamrolled from our WG down to the NC one. Platoon cohesion still needs a lot of work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyndylan View Post
    Unfortunately I only made the last half hour or so last night. Grible did a fantastic job as Squad Lead, and it was good to have Esoteric tagging along with Charlie. I'm aware that I'm still learning a lot about the game, so it's easy to conflate natural improvements with the results of TACGIR, but I think that having clearer roles and objectives actually makes it easier for inexperienced players.

    As was mentioned in the debrief, taking things a tiny bit more slowly might help us be a little more targeted in our actions. While I enjoyed a more structured arrangement, I felt that we ended up being the 'main' force while the 'casual' force got left behind.

    Lastly - this being the AAR thread, should we try and keep discussion about the unit's purpose/design in a seperate thread? It's so easy to spread discussions over multiple locations, which doesn't really hold any benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    Proposed 2 squad in tandem might help that. You were also in my squad GinSoaked, and it was a total mess at the start since I had to PL.

    Another thing to note is that we haven't really played this way much. We will get better. We have never even attemped tactical play between two squads.
    Last edited by EsotericReverie; 17-04-2013 at 08:20 AM.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Cross-posting this in from the TACGIR Introduction thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by protorp View Post
    Thanks once more Ridebird, Esoteric, MrEclectic for setting this up and everyone else for taking part. Once we got the surprisingly large force in order, it was striking how quickly and tightly we rolled down the west side of the map, especially considering it was the first trial of this format. We had some amazing fast, brutal action, even the final failed assault against Indar Bay was fun in its own way (despite NC resorting to mine / C4 spam tactics).

    One thing mentioned in the debrief that I'd like to post as a reminder, was the idea, if we do roll with a dedicated PL, of them being in a squad with players running as dedicated support assets - for recce, airlift, advance work etc. - and possibly anti air and anti ground air assets, if we find that a dedicated air only squad doesn't work out.
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  3. #3
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    I'm working on some ACL magic to fix up the comms situation, so that wherever you happen to be, you should only ever require one button to PTT to your own squad and one button to talk on the command chat. PLs will still need a third button to talk to everyone. I'll need someone to experiment with, does anyone have 5-10 minutes sometime soon? Just hop on Mumble and give me a holler!
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  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Re: squads working together.
    Since we got to PL ourselves, which was not our original intention, we lost some of the tight focus we had aimed for. Something to work on until next time, for sure. I think we should also try the comms setup where squads have their own channel, and SLs have a special key bound to shout to one of the other SLs. Really wish it would have been possible to have a Mumble channel be part of more than one whisper group. I've got some ideas, and I'll experiment with some easier setups, using the ACL (Access Control List) functionality in Mumble, will see if I can get it to work.
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  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Just a suggestion, that may not require Mumble alchemy or specialised setups. Before attacking a target, PL makes just a rough plan of which squad does what. EG Alpha go directly for the point, Bravo support from the west, Charlie secure the vehicle spawn, and reinforce as needed. So Alpha knows it is the strike force and calls the attack, Bravo tries to always stay on its west flank, not glued of course, trying to always get enemies in a crossfire situation, and Charlie acts as reinforcements to the other two, or switching to AA/AV duty if needed, etc.

    So we reduce communication to the absolute necessary, and the rest of the information is conveyed by coloured circles moving. SLs call out to each other only significant enemy movements, the squad that acts as the pivot of the maneuver calls out its movements, and the rest adapt. PL watches the situation, and adapts the formation. Perhaps, as the point and base are secured, a counter-attack from the north is launched, where Charlie has a prepared position. Charlie is assigned as the pivot then.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    I tried to do the above last night and I think it worked. Alpha was usually my pivot point, and I tried to keep my squad out of its way, finding ways to maneuver around and in support of it. If we do this in a more planned and organised manner, I think it will work.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrEclectic View Post
    Just a suggestion, that may not require Mumble alchemy or specialised setups.
    This is meant as a way to simplify the fiddly setup process, enabling us to have just a couple of shouts set up that will automatically go to the right people, depending on what channel you're currently in, something like this:

    Platoon Command.........send to anyone

    ├─ Unit 1..............(empty)

    │..├─ Alpha Command.....send to all subchannels of Unit 1
    │..│..└─ Alpha Squad....linked to Alpha Command
    │..│
    │..└─ Bravo Command.....send to all
    subchannels of Unit 1
    │.....└─ Bravo Squad....linked to Bravo Command

    └─ Unit 2..............(empty)
    ...├─ Charlie Command...send to all subchannels of Unit 2
    ...│..└─ Charlie Squad..linked to Charlie Command
    ...│
    ...└─ Delta Command.....send to all subchannels of Unit 2

    ......└─ Delta Squad....linked to Delta Command

    I'm trying to find a setup of ACLs that will allow SLs of Alpha and Bravo to communicate, by shouting to the Unit 1 channel, without allowing everyone else to do so too. So leaders set up two shouts, one to Unit 1, and one to Unit 2, and depending on if they're in Alpha/Bravo Command or Charlie/Delta Command, the same key can be used to shout to the other one of the pair, but not the other two squads. Then, if we were to say, move Charlie squad's channel into Unit 1, we suddenly have three squads talking to each other instead of two, without having to fiddle around with keybindings.

    I still haven't quite figured out how to disable shouts from outside of the squad command channels, however. If I can get that working, this would be an immensely nice and easy setup.
    Last edited by EsotericReverie; 17-04-2013 at 10:01 AM. Reason: Formatting

  8. #8
    ACL? This sounds and looks more complicated that it was previously. I don't entirely understand how it works now.


    Edit: I'm thinking perhaps it may be easier to decide how best to communicate between SLs and then find a way to make Mumble fit around that. Do we want SLs to always talk so that the PL and all other SLs can hear the discussion or do we want individual SLs just to talk to the PL or other SLs?
    Last edited by GinSoakedBoy; 17-04-2013 at 10:56 AM.

  9. #9
    Activated Node Kyndylan's Avatar
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    I've never used Mumble as anything other than a grunt, so I don't know much about it.

    However, if the pertinent bit of Esoteric's post is

    Quote Originally Posted by EsotericReverie View Post
    without having to fiddle around with keybindings.
    then I think it makes sense. From what I gathered, Esoteric/Mumble admins would need to do a little setting up, and be ready to move units into different channels when required, but then the job for all other PLs/SLs should be simpler?
    Last edited by Kyndylan; 17-04-2013 at 11:08 AM. Reason: Grammar
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  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Last edited by MrEclectic; 17-04-2013 at 02:28 PM.

  11. #11
    Activated Node Kyndylan's Avatar
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    All sounds marvellous - just a shame Thursdays are a no-go for me
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  12. #12
    Activated Node zekone's Avatar
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    I'll be around on Thursday, so am up for wandering about with my medic gun.

  13. #13
    Edit: Never mind, the guide it out-dated.
    Last edited by GinSoakedBoy; 17-04-2013 at 12:33 PM.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    Copy that in to the Stratgir thread as well. Up for Delta SL.

    Regarding comms for TACGIR were going to try skipping ROs and instead having a+b work together where the SLs talk to each other directly. PL will send down orders and TACGIR will respond in a very concise manner so the SLs can simply focus on leading their squad.

    Don't worry about acl, if it works it doesn't matter and you won't have to bother with it Gin. Should just work.
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    Because of cooldown timers and resources, I don't see specific air platoons and mechanized squads working out that well. You lose your Scythe/Mag, you're out for 15 minutes. There are also specific periods in a fight where air/armour are very useful, and outside those periods you really just want more ground infantry.

    In fact, I'd take TACGIR in the other direction: less centralized, more autonomous squads doing whatever they want and calling for other squads as backup if they want it.

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cfftble View Post
    Because of cooldown timers and resources, I don't see specific air platoons and mechanized squads working out that well. You lose your Scythe/Mag, you're out for 15 minutes. There are also specific periods in a fight where air/armour are very useful, and outside those periods you really just want more ground infantry.

    In fact, I'd take TACGIR in the other direction: less centralized, more autonomous squads doing whatever they want and calling for other squads as backup if they want it.
    Reply moved to Strategic Thursdays thread.
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 17-04-2013 at 02:29 PM.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus RIDEBIRD's Avatar
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    15 minutes is uncerted. That can be certed away very easily. For example, cooldown on my lib is about seven minutes. I'm only halfway invested. People with fully certed scythes got what, 3-5 minutes? Combine that with the fact that they're good at flying and you have no issue. Regarding tanks you can take turns between gunner and driver, as you can with a lib. It's just a question of certs.

    TACGIR is infantry and will continue to be so. AIRGIR and TANKGIR will be whatever their respective responsible people want to do with them. My plan for TACGIR is for the squads to be just that - autonomous and SLs coordinating between eachother in a pair of squads.

    Regarding Eclectics post here, I don't know why it is in here, as it has nothing to do with TACGIR, but is a one off for STRATGIR that has been desired for quite some time - namely combined arms. We don't use combined arms and we have to start doing that. We'll see if/how it works tommorrow, but this isn't the first time we've done this. We've had dedicated air squads quite a few times and it generally worked out fine when we had certed people doing it.
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  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus EsotericReverie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyndylan View Post
    I've never used Mumble as anything other than a grunt, so I don't know much about it.
    ...
    From what I gathered, Esoteric/Mumble admins would need to do a little setting up, and be ready to move units into different channels when required, but then the job for all other PLs/SLs should be simpler?
    Basically, yes. There is a rather hefty and unfun setup process to get the channels up, but this is a one-time task. After that, the only thing needed is to get people into the right channel (their own job!) and then organise the channels (drag-and-drop) into whatever units we want to have at any given moment.


    Quote Originally Posted by RIDEBIRD View Post
    Regarding comms for TACGIR were going to try skipping ROs and instead having a+b work together where the SLs talk to each other directly. PL will send down orders and TACGIR will respond in a very concise manner so the SLs can simply focus on leading their squad.

    Don't worry about acl, if it works it doesn't matter and you won't have to bother with it Gin. Should just work.
    Exactly this. ACL stands for Access Control List, a concept with rule based access and rights management for groups of users, or in this case channels. It allows us to determine who gets to do what depending on what channel they're in.

    Posted a bomb of a thing over in the Mumble thread.

  19. #19
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    Had great fun yesterday! In general I always like to hear the PL more often to get better the bigger picture...
    From my perspective would like to have starting hours one hour ealier... meaning 8 CET.
    Last edited by deralex; 17-04-2013 at 08:12 PM.
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