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  1. #1
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    The newbie SL question thread : class capabilities, tactics, strategy, etc.

    Being a SL in the TACGIR system is a whole new dimension to the game. You're used to play a group of classes, and handle your own self, but then suddenly, you have to think about all the classes, and how to get 12 people to be where they should, and make them as efficient as possible for your objective. It's fun to play, but you will probably discover some things about the game that you weren't aware of. Here is the good place to ask them.

    I will start with my own question : AA capabilities.
    Last Thursday, the PL asked our squad to handle AA duties. As someone who plays mainly Infiltrator (and Engineers/Medic when needed), that was something I never think about. Of course I know very well about the turrets I keep hacking, but I didn't know anything about "how does the infantry defends against Airplanes".

    Luckily the awesome guys in my team knew about that, and pulled out MAXes, and we did mostly OK on that duty. (Note for newbie SL : your team is awesome, don't hesitate to ask them what you don't know. Better learn it on the go and make your squad better rather than stay silent for fear of showing weakness)
    Now that the fight is over, I would like an exhaustive list of what is good AA.
    - Turrets
    - Vehicles, if correctly equipped.
    - MAXes. Do all MAXes have AA capabilities ? Can the default MAX weapons handle AA ?
    - Can heavy assault handle AA duties ? With default or custom set up ?
    - Any other way to handle AA ?

    Note for self : try others classes as much possible in the next few days. When I started, I wasn't expecting to be SL for a long time, and especially not SL in TACGIR settings where people rely only on you. But I definitely wants to do it again, so I better start training for the job.

    PS for the mods : I'm starting this thread because even though it overlaps several other threads (WAS, com setup, etc.), it also explore new things and talk about things in a different ways. It's not about the weapon/coms I will buy later, it's about what to do with the weapons/coms I currently have. If you think it's useless/redundant, feel free to merge it with others threads.
    Last edited by Ksempac; 04-05-2013 at 02:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Hey Ksempac, firstly, well done for stepping up as SL on Thursday. It can all be a bit intimidating at first but people here are pretty supportive of each other.

    With regards to AA, generally people will either use Burster maxes or one of the lock-on AA rockets for Heavy Assault. All players will start with a MAX that has a single burster on it, so at the very least any player has some AA capability. It's highly recommended to unlock the second buster.

    However, if you've not played much with a MAX and your squad has already got a lot you could go as engineer and drop ammo boxes, people will burn through their ammo quickly and will be glad of it. You can also repair the MAXes if they get damaged too.

  3. #3
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    weve figured out that every max needs half an engineer. also one medic for an entire squad should be enough, unless it gets split in half to cover more air. also, if air is very present, you might sacrifice engineers for more maxes. but you might need atleast one more medic in that case.

    also, unless youre overrun, the medic is the most important asset here due to maxes costing resources and timer countdowns.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  4. #4
    Lesser Hivemind Node sketchseven's Avatar
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    So a good squad composition would be 8 Maxes, 4 Engis and a Medic to keep gluing back together everyone who falls over?

  5. #5
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no, because that would be 13 people.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  6. #6
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    Don't know if you need as many as 8 burster maxes. Six seems like more than enough. Anyway, general thoughts from a newbie leader below.

    Disclaimer: I have only ever led non-TacGir.

    Reading about your issues with squad leading in the other thread, Ksem, I totally agree about how the job takes all your concentration, to the point where you have to remember to actually engage with the shooting as well. New SLs should be aware that there is a lot for them to do, they are the linchpin of the entire group. Having said that, don't want to intimidate them too much, like you say the whole outfit is there to support you. Guessing that it also gets easier with practice, until you can fight and lead at the same time and generally be incredible.

    Think that general, important things for any leader are: you need to be assertive. You need to be prepared to talk clearly in a way that demands silence. You need to have a good grasp of game mechanics and the strategies that emerge (eg. knowing that blowing up sunderers ninja-style is the absolute priority for any base defence). So basically giving clear, effective orders to get the squad working towards a common goal.

    Sounds like you jumped in at the deep end, having not been playing for too long and being tired to boot. Hope that you stick with it, since you obviously have the enthusiasm for it. Sure that I have newbie questions of my own, but cannot think of any right now.

  7. #7
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    Sounds like you jumped in at the deep end, having not been playing for too long and being tired to boot. Hope that you stick with it, since you obviously have the enthusiasm for it. Sure that I have newbie questions of my own, but cannot think of any right now.
    You're mistaking, I wasn't the one who said he was tired, that was Skahlt. I was leading Fox Trot (aka Bravo Unit 2). Skahlt who was also a newbie SL was leading another squad (I think it was Alpha ?). Not saying I did a great job, but there were severals SL who had different issues last Thursday.

    Good advice anyways.

    Back to my AA question :
    - Thanks for the MAX infos. That will be useful
    - I played a bit of heavy at the beginning, and don't remember a lock-on missile as default loadout. Can you confirm it's a weapon you need to buy/unlock with cert ?
    - Is there any ground vehicle which is decent/good against Air with default setup ?
    Last edited by Ksempac; 04-05-2013 at 02:13 PM.

  8. #8
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    so far, the best AA vehicle so far is the AA sundy. its entirely possible the harasser will take over from that, but the sundy is a force to be reckoned with.

    There is a thread floating around which details my AA Sundy setup, but short overview:
    *double AA guns. I use a walker and a ranger to great success. but you can get two walkers without a problem. (dont get two rangers though)
    *composite armour. this helps against bombarding libs or esfs. it essentially gives you double the time before splosion if upgraded fully.
    *racer chassis, for outrunning airplanes if you need a repair.
    *I suggest also fitting the AMS system.

    now, the harasser might take over simply by being able to fit a walker and have a burster max in the back. it will, however, splode double as fast as a sundy and does not have the spawn point advantage.

    note: default best AA vehicle is the sundy as well, since the double m20s are decent against air.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 04-05-2013 at 02:22 PM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    Back to my AA question :
    - Thanks for the MAX infos. That will be useful
    - I played a bit of heavy at the beginning, and don't remember a lock-on missile as default loadout. Can you confirm it's a weapon you need to buy/unlock with cert ?
    - Is there any ground vehicle which is decent/good against Air with default setup ?
    Unfortunately there is no lock-on aa available to the heavy assault by default, it's an unlock. I think the cheapest is 700sc or 1000 certs, but I'm not sure.

    As for ground vehicles, I'm not sure what's good by default. A sunderer with 2 gunners would make a good deterrent I guess but it's not going to compare to a Skyguard (which you need to unlock) or an AA Max.

  10. #10
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GinSoakedBoy View Post
    As for ground vehicles, I'm not sure what's good by default. A sunderer with 2 gunners would make a good deterrent I guess but it's not going to compare to a Skyguard (which you need to unlock) or an AA Max.
    forgot about the skyguard. isnt it shit anymore then?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  11. #11
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    It's ok. It's the only way to decently protect an armoured column short of AA sundies. As for AA in general, the single burster arm all have is the only basic AA, unfortunately. You can usually expect half or more of your squad to have some form of upgraded AA though, whether that's lock-ons or dual burster.

  12. #12
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qaz View Post
    It's ok. It's the only way to decently protect an armoured column short of AA sundies. As for AA in general, the single burster arm all have is the only basic AA, unfortunately. You can usually expect half or more of your squad to have some form of upgraded AA though, whether that's lock-ons or dual burster.

    but the thing about the buggies having half the hp of sundies is true, right?
    also, how resistant are lightnings?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    You're mistaking, I wasn't the one who said he was tired, that was Skahlt.
    Woops, sorry. Was going to reply in the other thread then realised this one was more appropriate.

    Regarding anti-air, burster MAXes and AA guns on towers are the strongest options in my experience.
    Last edited by Rizlar; 04-05-2013 at 03:39 PM.

  14. #14
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    Ha. Lightnings are actually about as tanky as magriders used to be. If you use front armour, that side can withstand as much as a post-patch magrider.

    no idea about the harasser. it seems to die pretty quickly tho

  15. #15
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    Don't forget that your regular bullets will damage enemy ESFs, the single-person fighters. It's not a lot, but a full squad can usually chase a guy off if he's hovering around. It will at least give you time to go re-equip.

  16. #16
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    ok, so lightnings are ok because they dont need a team, but sundies rule all in terms of firepower and armour.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  17. #17
    Lesser Hivemind Node Ksempac's Avatar
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    Ok, great information. I now have a good idea on "what's the best way to deal with Air" and "what are the solutions when the situation is bad and the best option is unavailable"

    So on to the second question : How to deal with tanks ?
    Again a rundown of solutions :
    - Some turrets
    - MAX. What's the loadout people use for that ? Can default weapons handles that ?
    - Heavy. What's the loadout people use for that ? Can the default weapon handles that ?
    - Vehicles. Is there a vehicle which is decent against tanks with default weapons ?
    - Others ways ? I suppose C4 could do the job, but tanks tends to hit and run so that's more or less useless. Mines for defensive positions would be ok. Anything else ?
    Last edited by Ksempac; 05-05-2013 at 10:31 AM.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LaKroy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    How to deal with tanks ?
    - Some turrets
    If you have access to base (Phalanx) turrets in the correct positions, they can be very effective against tanks. Need to be repaired if under heavy attack. The engineer AV MANA turret (unlockable, not default) is also very effective against tanks, especially at long ranges.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    - MAX. Can default weapons handles that ?
    MAX has one default anti-vehicle weapon: the Comet. This is not bad, but a waste of resources if not dual-equipped. There is now also the Vortex for MAXes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    - Heavy. Can the default weapon handles that ?
    Yes, the heavy has a very good anti-tank weapon in the dumbfire rocket launcher. At close range this gives higher damage per second than the empire-specific launchers and lock-on launchers. At longer ranges (medium-long), the Lancer is king and can be extremely devastating when used en masse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    - Vehicles. Is there a vehicle which is decent against tanks with default weapons ?
    The obvious choice here is the magrider equipped with a Halberd missile launcher or the mighty Saron HRB. Sunderers equipped with dual basilisks can easily kill an enemy tank if it only has a driver (this might very well have changed with the recent buff to tank damage resistance though). Mass up your sunderers for a surprisingly effective alternative armour column. Lightnings with the armour piercing canon can also be effective. If there is little enemy air and AA, Scythes with rocket pods and liberators can be used to take out enemy tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ksempac View Post
    - Others ways ? I suppose C4 could do the job, but tanks tends to hit and run so that's more or less useless. Mines for defensive positions would be ok. Anything else ?
    C4 is best utilized on the light assault in close quarters situations, for example inside amp stations and outposts. Tanks that are not aware enough will be easy pickings, but as you said, the hit and run tank tactics will make it more difficult.
    Last edited by LaKroy; 05-05-2013 at 11:21 AM.

  19. #19
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    LaKroy pretty much covers it. If in the open, engaging a tank column with your own guerilla group of Saron-equipped Magriders is a strong counter. If there is little air and the vehicles are hard to reach, Liberators can be very effective. If defending a facility/have a good position looking down on tanks then pulling Heavies with Lancers and Engineers with Mana AV turrets is good.

    It is very situational, depends on enemy forces and positioning, often a combined response (eg. Mags playing peek-a-boo while Heavies rain death from the hills) can be good.

  20. #20
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    The standard rocketlauncher can be very effective as well, especially when you are using it to flank tanks that have decided to come into a base. Using it at range is possible, but it requires quite a lot of practice due to the velocity + drop.

    Also, un-upgraded mags can work if you have enough of them (saron mags are far far better though)

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