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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    [VS] Organisation and Leadership

    Hey folks,

    We've all been reading the State of RPS thread, and once again squad and platoon leading issues have been highlighted. These have been highlighted before, but usually fall to the way side as people move on to other topics, and nothing as done as it generally just gets forgotten about. Until a few months later when the same things are brought up.

    And it's not just squad and platoon leading, the same things crop up, but nothing is ever done about them, just discussion till people get bored.

    Well balls to that. Let's do something.

    As you know, the Outfit is here for the readers of RPS. It was founded by Cooper and the original intent was for all members to have equality; no official leadership, just people pursuing ideas and events and following through with them. And it worked well for the most part.

    But gradually over time some of the people playing in this time have left the game for various reasons, and new people have joined us. This is good, and natural. The problem is having no official leadership no longer works. The new people, quite rightly, look to the longer term players (let's refer to them as the "veterans" or "vets" for simplicity sakes), for guidance and support. But this creates a safety net where people start to rely on these people to lead, even during day to day activities.

    Do something now for me. Count on your fingers and toes the names of people who regularly lead squads and platoons. Not those cajoled into doing it, but these who genuinely step forward often. I will make a safe bet you won't make it to your feet.

    The point of this post? Well, I believe it starts at the core of the Outfit, for the reasons I have stated above. Sort that out and the rest *should* fall into place. Therefore I plan to introduce a new system in the coming weeks. A system where we have leaders, motivation and, most importantly, decisions being made quickly and thoughtfully.

    The system is as follows:

    A council, initially made up by those who either regularly lead, or who have made significant contributions to the Outfit as a whole. There are 6 council members and one council leader. The members vote on the biggest of issues that are raised. These issues will be rare, the sort of stuff akin to what I am doing. If the members draw on votes, so 3 vote one way, and 3 vote another, the leader then casts their vote and decides.

    The leaders other job is to make sure that things discussed are discussed efficiently, and that people do not go round in circles. They also must make sure that the council members are busy doing what they are supposed to.

    As well as voting the members will have other concerns, some of which I have noted down in this document. This may change, things may be removed or added but that is for the council to decide.

    Now, I want to make something clear. This is not about them deciding every little thing for us. Not by a long way. They handle the big stuff. You are still responsible for everything else. They are their to encourage you to do this.

    Say you have a cool idea for an event. They are not going to do it for you. Just get on and organise it! Just as we do now. Not sure how to go about it? Speak to them and they will help, but you will be doing the legwork. Trust me on this, you will feel great in yourself having organised a great event yourself. There is one that I am trying not bring up again that I am proud of for doing myself. It's a lot of work, but it was awesome!

    I digress.

    The document linked also contains the names of those I have nominated as the initial council. I'm sure you will agree with them. I have spoken to each of these people and they have all volunteered to get behind this, it really shows why this Outfit is awesome. The people we have are willing to get behind big things and make them work!

    You may note that my name is not on this list despite me moving this forward. It is precisely for this reason that I am not. It would not be right to nominate myself into this.

    This system will be implemented from Monday the 2nd June. We will have a meeting to discuss this system in more detail on Sunday 1st June, at 9pm BST, after the Liberator S4T. The discussion will be short and to the point, and will be in the same format as the council meetings that will take place on the 1st of every month from then on.

    The meetings will be conducted in a special meeting channel (to be set up) where only the council have the permissions to speak. Everyone is welcome to join and listen, but everyone will be muted. Text chat will be enabled for the time being but if it gets out of hand it can also be disabled. If someone wants to add to the discussion they make it known in text chat, and they are then unmuted by the council to speak their piece, and are then re muted. This should hopefully keep discussions on topic and concise.

    Each month, starting after the addition of the new system, two newer members of the outfit will be nominated to sit in the meeting as "junior council members". They will also have speaking rights, but hold no power in votes. this is to maintain a fresh image of the Outfit, and gain perspective from a new players stand point, which those of us who have been playing for months can not have. The "junior members" will be cycled each month.

    If one of the council members cannot make a meeting, a junior member form the previous meeting will be asked to sit on the council for that meeting. If absence is a common occurrence, then the council may either vote in a willing member of the outfit to become a full time council member in the absentees place, or they may chose to elect one of the months previous junior members, should they agree. The same is of a council member leaving either the game or the Outfit.

    This thread is to be used to discuss this system only. Positive or negative feedback is gladly welcome, but let's remain excellent. Keep an eye on this post for any information I add over the course of the week.

    If you don't like this system don't just say that, come up with something constructive, and make a counter proposal.

    Let's make a decision!

    Edit: Clarification

    Page 2 of the PDF is a list of items that are controversial, yet affect very little. Especially point 1.

    I'll discuss that first point in a little more details.

    Yes, it annoys me. I want it to be done. This is also specifically why I have made sure that after this initial push for change I have no power. The council will decide on this. Given that I am in the minority on this issue, I highly doubt it'll happen, but it will be open for discussion. I will put it to the council, we will discuss it for 5 minutes and then it'll be put to bed, one way or another.

    I chose it because yes, I want to see it happen. But ultimately it is not my decision. But let's look at what I perceive to be the pros and cons. The rest will be looked at on Sunday.

    Pros:
    • Alleviates my irritation (:P)
    • May help alleviate RPS image of being a Zergfit. Yup, we are sometimes seen this way. People don't realise just how small we actually are.
    • People like to play in platoons. Right now, numbers are low. This will help, more easily, determine activity levels and allow the council to decide if they should actively recruit/have another CTA

    Cons:
    • It's a sucky thing to do
    • Time consuming
    • Has no real impact on the outfit as a whole


    Of course it is easy to re-invite someone. At the end of the day it's good for the council to start with something like this.

    If you want something brought to them, like I am doing, then feel free. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT!
    Last edited by Dewi; 26-05-2014 at 01:41 PM.
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  2. #2
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    100% For.

    It is plain to all that the current structure of the outfit just doesn't work. The ultra orthodox democracy we have clearly has the best intentions behind it but has lead to more indecision, inaction and ultimately, a lack of fun, than any other guild/clan structure I have come across. You can blame this mostly on apathy (I am guilty of this), lack of balls (hi again) or just that the very nature of RPS attracts members who aren't looking for MLGPRO Noscope Tacforce Delta but a casual outfit of people who don't want to lonewolf every day but also maybe can't reliably log in because of jobs / angry wives / children / real life (hello hello).

    I'm incredibly grateful to Dewi, Cooper and all the members mentioned in the list for volunteering to dedicate their time and effort. If the list of principles/responsibilities is stuck too, this will massively improve the outfit. I for one will make a particular effort to SL much more now and do my little bit to share the load.

  3. #3
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    Oh hello!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rizlar View Post
    Without wanting to get too clique-ey, maybe a weekly Council of Giraffes, where the Responsible Giraffes meet up and discuss plans, would help promote more active problem solving/leadership discussion? It would not have to be a compulsory thing to attend, and sessions could be as short as discussing the one thing that's going on that week. Sharing ideas and information seems important.
    Ahem, yeah anyway, this all sounds great. Hopefully this will help keep the outfit ticking over a bit more steadily. Unlike Elriz, RPS has been far and away the most active, decisive and fun multiplayer community I have taken part in. This is due to the amazing people which is why I'm confident in this new council's success.

    Two criticisms of the current proposal: is it really necessary to cull inactive members at all? So it will increase our Dasanfall stats, who gives a single shit? I'm not convinced that it's necessary to or even a good way to judge activity either. I would also question the introduction of an extra step in the recruitment procedure. The old one has always worked well enough and installing and playing PS2 is a pretty monumental task for a newbie as it is, adding extra hurdles to play with us just seems cruel. But I can see the point in encouraging forum use, I wouldn't oppose the new application system if the council decided it was best.

    edit: Also I want to nominate Dewi for council member if possible.
    Last edited by Rizlar; 26-05-2014 at 01:55 AM.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus BasicPauly's Avatar
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    Before I say anything, I will emphasise that I dont play all that much planetside now, though I do from time to time join. I do have PS2 to thank for the fact that I now play many games with a great bunch of Giraffes and other RPSers.

    As a 'Vet', its nice to see that quite a few active vets are still about and pushing things forward, and good on you Dewi for stepping up and proposing that something actually happen instead of our usual stagnation.

    Ive really not much to say on the topic, as it is well thought out and might actually work really well. Ive certainly no counter ideas either, however I would say that it might be wise to consider this more of a trial run than a final destination.

    This is simply to ensure that everything works out well, as with a system like this, there is a chance for other problematic issues to arise. I think some leadership is a great step forward, but as a group we ought to make sure that this definitely doesnt become a dictatorship scenario. I see that is one of the goals, to maintain a similar system, but with the council deciding big issues, which is great, but it needs to be kept at that.

    The guys on the current list are all perfect for it, so im sure we wont have any silliness now, but it only takes a couple of people wanting to do things a certain way to ruin a beautiful system.


    Anyway, a suggestion I would have, is to rotate the council a little more than simply replacing members for not showing up. That could benefit the group in a few ways:
    1- those people wouldnt get to control things absolutely,
    2- it would give them a bit of a break and
    3- it would mean that the groupings of vets would be different, i.e. if there are 20 people who do the job in a cycle, the groupings wouldnt be the same all the time, but different people put together in each new grouping.

    That would certainly keep things fresh, in addition to the idea of having junior members sit in.

    It would also be a great idea to note down the key points in a thread, so that regular members can discuss it there, or later on in chat with people, if really necessary. I assume somebody would do this anyway, judging by previous experiences.


    Overall, sounds like a good system though, so nice work mate.

    Certainly do need a way to promote more squad/platoon leadership, and I guess this can be one topic for discussion for the council . I would love to see some scheme where people are incentivsed to sl for a night, though ive no idea how to do this fairly, as saying "youre it" might not be so popular.


    Edit: Plus one for everything Rizlar said, and Kudos for prempting the council.

    I agree with no cull (im not all that active, but would like to remain).

    I also agree with "Dewi for counciller 2014", though I could also understand if somebody turned it down. Quite the task.



    Council name proposals:
    -Giraffi Council
    -Jediraffe Council
    -Jeraffe Council
    -Giri or Geri Council
    Clearly Im voting for Jedi based puns.
    Last edited by BasicPauly; 26-05-2014 at 02:09 AM.
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  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Boris's Avatar
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    I hope I don't sound apathic when I say "whatever".

    This is as good a system as any. Better, actually, because there's someone implementing it. That gives it a leg up on the systems of similar quality that don't have a champion.

    Do it. If I wanted something better/my way/whatever else, I should have done it myself :P

    Dewi for Giraffe Herder 2014.

    PS: That's my proposed name for this; Giraffe Herders.

  6. #6
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    Sounds like a good idea.
    Dewi for Giraffe Herder 2014.

  7. #7
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    I still don't see why anyone should waste their time culling people.

    If you want to know what our active numbers and names are, then Outfitpoints.com or stats.dasanfall will tell you easily and simply.

    Secondly, General responsibilities 5, 6 and 7 and initial responsibility 1 are specifically taking powers from established processes or going against previously agreed decisions. If you're going to make this power change (and I don't think you'll find it difficult to do) then you should do this through the old system, or you're basically announcing a coup. So what I'm saying is hold an Outfit chat (we're very overdue this anyway) at a time when a good spread of the outfit is on (ie the traditional weds or similar) and say that you'd like to bring this in, explain the advantages, and get general approval. Right now if feels like to me, you've done everything possible during creating this to avoid dealing with anybody who might disagree with you, and that is not how you get happy organisations, or good structures.

    It's not really a valid argument to say that "the best things in this outfit came from anybody just stepping up and doing them" because nobody new has stepped up for a long time.
    Last edited by CMaster; 26-05-2014 at 12:56 PM.

  8. #8
    Network Hub stoopiduk's Avatar
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    Thanks for all this Dewi, and everyone who volunteered/agreed.

  9. #9
    Network Hub eltdown's Avatar
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    Good stuff, Dewi, good stuff. Seems to balance big-issues leadership without the leaders having to decide on every little thing.

    I know culling inactive members has traditionally been off the agenda, but if the proposed cull is mostly aimed at getting a better idea of active members then you could just use the Planetside Universe stats here. You can easily see, for example, that around 240 members logged in within the last month. Also the Outfitpoints site here.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    I still don't see why anyone should waste their time culling people.

    If you want to know what our active numbers and names are, then Outfitpoints.com or stats.dasanfall will tell you easily and simply.

    Secondly, General responsibilities 5, 6 and 7 and initial responsibility 1 are specifically taking powers from established processes or going against previously agreed decisions. If you're going to make this power change (and I don't think you'll find it difficult to do) then you should do this through the old system, or you're basically announcing a coup. So what I'm saying is hold an Outfit chat (we're very overdue this anyway) at a time when a good spread of the outfit is on (ie the traditional weds or similar) and say that you'd like to bring this in, explain the advantages, and get general approval. Right now if feels like to me, you've done everything possible during creating this to avoid dealing with anybody who might disagree with you, and that is not how you get happy organisations, or good structures.

    It's not really a valid argument to say that "the best things in this outfit came from anybody just stepping up and doing them" because nobody new has stepped up for a long time.
    So when someone steps up to actually do something you tell them they need to back and talk about it. Sorry mate, I'm done with that.

    As for for the accusation that I am setting this up to push my own agenda in a way that avoid people who disagree with me. I originally nominated you as someone for the council who specifically disagrees with me. You declined. I asked you specific opinions in person to help refine this, yet you gave none.

    Oh, and the reason that I have put culling outfit members on there is for a dry run of the system to test it works. It is controversial, hence the replies here, yet it actually affects very little. There are pros and cons

    So, unless you having something constructive to add, other than "I don't like it, let's talk about things again for a few months till all of this blows over", please leave it at the door.

    I guess this would be a coup, if there was anyone to take leadership from. Cooper is not a leader, he has never professed to be. He founded the outfit, sure, but he has never declared himself in charge. Quite the contrary. I have spoken to him about this before making this post as a courtesy, and whilst he has his own reservations, he welcomes that something is being done.

    And please, don't take my hostility due to your criticism. My hostility is that I have specifically asked you directly before I made this post, and have gone against my original post and posted something non constructive. If you don't agree, well step up and do something better.
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  11. #11
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    Yeah, you asked me. Privately.

    While going around and asking it not be be discussed with anyone except you.

    I'm not saying this is a bad idea. I'm asking why you seem so damn afraid of discussion and critcism?

    I'm not saying to just sit around and wait until it blows over. I'm in fact specifically saying get it over now. Set a time to have a meeting where people can oppose or revise this plan if they so wish. Then go ahead and do it (or not, if the majority feeling is to do something else)

    As you've observed before, I'm not especially patient. I've never advocated long consultation times. What I have always advocated is giving people a chance to have their say. I still am. Previous outfit meetings have gotten a lot decided (although yes, there was a couple of issues that it struggled with). Where things never worked quite as well was the implementation side, which this proposal seems to aim to fix (I'm unsure if it will work, but it's probably worth a try).
    Last edited by CMaster; 26-05-2014 at 02:05 PM.

  12. #12
    Network Hub stoopiduk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    If you're going to make this power change (and I don't think you'll find it difficult to do) then you should do this through the old system, or you're basically announcing a coup. So what I'm saying is hold an Outfit chat (we're very overdue this anyway) at a time when a good spread of the outfit is on (ie the traditional weds or similar) and say that you'd like to bring this in, explain the advantages, and get general approval.
    Sorry Dewi, I agree with this your idea and will definitely vote it in, but CMaster has made a good point and it is constructive. What I took from his post was that we should use the methods we have at our disposal already to give this new leadership legitimacy. As CMaster said, I don't think getting it cleared is going to be difficult, but it is surely important that it is done.

    What harm is there in an outfit chat anyway? Should mean we have a decent group of people online to welcome in the changes if they're passed (which again, I think they will be).

  13. #13
    I know everyone seems to dislike the culling of inactive members I feel it could improve the "reputation" of the outfit. I was talking to a friend on Cobalt about outfits and when I mentioned I was in RPS he just laughed about it being some tagfit (despite it having the playstyle he actually enjoys) and just thought it was something people went into to say (and I quote) "Lol I'm in RPS, I'm so pro" as if we were SCEV or something. While reputation isn't the most important thing as long as we're still all having fun and respected in TVA etc but the worry is that it'll affect recruitment. The fact someone with no knowledge of Miller server culture or outfits thinks RPS is a zergfit is worrying, especially considering the abysmal status of outfits on Cobalt.

    Might be a good idea to simply cull the low level players who logged on twice at launch, joined RPS and never played again, culling any ranked players or those with high BRs is a bit more controversial and might catch people who just haven't had time to play.

    Also might be a good idea to rotate the main council members otherwise theres a risk of it becoming cliquey, we could even have elections to vote them in to keep it fair. I know the people on the list would do good on a council but if people start to view them as "above" them it might create tensions.

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    Whilst I am loathe to sit here and defend myself, I will answer these:
    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    While going around and asking it not be be discussed with anyone except you.
    So people heard it coming from me and not through the grapevine. Also so i could speak to Cooper about this rather than him hearing it through someone else. It's called courtesy.

    Quote Originally Posted by CMaster View Post
    I'm not saying this is a bad idea. I'm asking why you seem so damn afraid of discussion and critcism?
    I'm not afraid of discussion, but I am afraid of discussion in RPS. I'll have stopped seeking work and be claiming a pension before anything actually happened.

    Also criticism is welcome, just make it constructive. Not "I don't like this bit". Post them here and I will respond, maybe you will come up with something better than what I have, that wouldn't be difficult.

    Also there is a meeting about this, arranged in my original post. Sunday 1st June. 9PM BST.
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  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Dewi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaggedmallard View Post
    Also might be a good idea to rotate the main council members otherwise theres a risk of it becoming cliquey, we could even have elections to vote them in to keep it fair. I know the people on the list would do good on a council but if people start to view them as "above" them it might create tensions.
    Thanks Mallard. How would you rotate them? And after how long?

    I ask because it is a good idea, but unsure of the fairest way to do this/
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  16. #16
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    I would go for old fashioned "Voting day" type stuff, and only the votes of those that bothered count. That way, you avoid the issue going unnoticed. Maybe put up a poll over week?
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  17. #17
    Network Hub stoopiduk's Avatar
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    But isn't that meeting set to be in the unilaterally decided "council chooses who speaks" set up?

    Make that meeting a standard outfit meeting, and it looks like we're golden.

  18. #18
    Lesser Hivemind Node sinomatic's Avatar
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    I don't think that sort of hostility is necessary Dewi, nor do I think Cmaster's request of an outfit chat to get general approval for the plan is really quite the same as 'have an outfit chat then not do anything for months' or something non-constructive. There's basically something being put in place that affects everyone that has essentially been put together behind closed doors* before being declared as happening. As an example, it's clear that there were already a few of us who aren't on board with the idea of culling inactive players, and other people might well have more ideas to put forward on the structure in general.

    For the record I'm absolutely behind the idea of a council, and I think the people who are on it are excellent choices (in fact there are quite a few other people, yourself included, who I'm sorry not to see on the list). Anything that helps push us forward and gives us more direction is, quite frankly, awesome and I'm 100% behind that but I don't think it's asking too much to hold a quick meeting to field any concerns, questions or ideas for how it's going to work before putting it in practice. I personally don't foresee there being too many problems in taking the idea into an outfit chat.....but if I'm wrong and there was huge disapproval for the idea then that would be pretty important to know before going ahead, no? It might very well just turn out to be a formality with everyone agreeing, but I'd rather that than have issues with people feeling sidelined or left out of the decision to completely change how the outfit is run. As mentioned above, make the first meeting a normal outfit one, then beyond that move to the council set-up.


    * I get that you wanted to talk to prospective council members to feel them out, so I'm not saying you were going behind backs or anything dramatic like that.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    If you want to make such changes to the outfit you owe it to us to have a discussion. You owe it to us to sit through two to three hours of chat about the subject.

    Hold a meeting. Hold it on the first Wednesday of June. (The first Wednesday of the month was the agreed outfit chat date and we were having them regularly until I stopped pushing them because I was away for a couple). This will ensure a large number of people engage in the discussion. Record it, allow people who cannot make it to listen and respond to it.

    Do not be scared of discussion. We do make decisions. We are, actually, really fucking good at making decisions to do things, just poor at then doing those things. Something this is supposed to ameliorate.

    One thing that particularly worries me about this is that it's purpose is stated as being to relieve irritation. This worry is compunded by the desire to implment this on a given date after a 'short' conversation that sounds more like an opporunity to tell us how it will be rather than engage us in the future of the outfit. This sounds like an absurd lack of patience. If huge changes are to be made, they must be made with patience, consideration and engagement.

    Telling the outfit 'this is how things are going to be' is not the way to make sweeping organisational change without causing disgruntlement.

    It also worries me that this arrives after discussion taking place 'behind the scenes'. I know you have spoken to some long term active members before coming forward with this, but you have done so privately, and I gather asking that things be kept quiet. This is so vastly unlike how we have done things in the outfit that I cannot help but dislike it, regardless of the good intentions.

    So, again: Anyone supporting this owes it to us to have a discussion, open and lengthy, and make sure the outfit is on board before this comes in, whether you would like to or not.

    We have an existing decision making process. You wish to change that system. If you do not make that change by going through the existing decision making process then the change is, in my mind, illegitimate.

    For clarity:
    As always: I will support anything that the outfit as a whole agrees to do.

    Without this clearly being a decision that attempts to engage the whole outfit (simply by being polite enough to invite us to an open discussion about the future of our outfit) I cannot and will not support this.
    Last edited by Cooper; 26-05-2014 at 03:00 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
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  20. #20
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    Last post by me was far too confrontational, apologies for that, does not help solve things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewi View Post
    Also there is a meeting about this, arranged in my original post. Sunday 1st June. 9PM BST.
    Yes, a meeting where

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewi
    We will have a meeting to discuss this system in more detail on Sunday 1st June, at 9pm BST, after the Liberator S4T. The discussion will be short and to the point, and will be in the same format as the council meetings that will take place on the 1st of every month from then on.
    The council are already in charge, and it sounds more like an instructional lecture, especially as:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dewi
    This system will be implemented from Monday the 2nd June.
    Regardless of what happens at that meeting, including someone coming up with something we all like much better.

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