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  1. #481
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    I love that they're still taking a "How could you not want this?!" attitude to the whole debacle. Corporate machinations mystify me.

  2. #482
    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    New marketing name: Xbox 180
    Eh, it's a 280. It's still $100 bucks more.
    I have no idea wht he allowed it, but penguins like the artic orcheanograby. Gare ams and losw as shwacricicaal. I haven't figured out the moral of this stay, are. y, Basefallwih ough.

  3. #483
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Haha! Still not buying the piece of shit.

  4. #484
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Just remember to cover the Kinect with a sheet and masturbate silently. That is unless they sneakily added heat vision.
    It already has infrared cameras! THE HORROR!

    OT, it still watches you 24h a day if it's connected to the internet and it's still 500$/€. Kinect is still not optional. And they removed features like sharing and discless play.
    Last edited by somini; 20-06-2013 at 01:42 AM.
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  5. #485
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    If I was going to buy a new console I think I'd still go with the PS4.

    This change is welcome I guess for anyone who wanted one, but really what they needed to do was to remove the continuous online check and operate an "offline" mode. PC gaming has widely adopted that in Steam as the best method of DRM (to the point of No Steam No Sale!) and we can't sell our used Steam games, so I don't know why everyone's expecting that consoles should be any different. Physical media is largely irrelevant these days, it's the license we're paying for in the digital age.

    While I wholeheartedly agree the original plan was utter bullshit, I can't help but laugh sometimes when PC gaming condemns MS with this project when we embraced Steam, which isn't quite as draconian but still has online activation for games, still offers no way to resell used games or even transfer the license as a gift, and up until only last year had an unreliable offline mode.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  6. #486
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    I've been sharing Steam accounts in offline mode with friends for years.

  7. #487
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    If I was going to buy a new console I think I'd still go with the PS4.
    Indeed, if I could choose how to die, I would really prefer bullet wounds than drowning

    I kid, I agree with your points.
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  8. #488
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    @soldant: Because consoles don't have Steam sales. Console games are, on average, significantly more expensive than PC games, so the additional costs have to be recouped elsewhere. There's a longstanding tradition of sharing discs and reselling used games in the console space, something which the PC never really had. The Xbone was asking people to give that up without giving anything in return. It was a stupid move.

  9. #489
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    @soldant: Because consoles don't have Steam sales. Console games are, on average, significantly more expensive than PC games, so the additional costs have to be recouped elsewhere. There's a longstanding tradition of sharing discs and reselling used games in the console space, something which the PC never really had. The Xbone was asking people to give that up without giving anything in return. It was a stupid move.
    Except that sales don't have much to do with the DRM complaints, people objected to it because of flaky internet connections. PC gaming did have a long tradition of sharing copies and selling used games, but it died out quite a while back due to new online DRM developments and activation. And we helped it along by embracing Steam. Hell I can remember in the mid 2000s I could go to my local video rental shop and rent PC games. That stopped around 2007 when Steam really took off.

    The fact that it's been more prevalent with consoles is no doubt partly affected by the cost of new releases, but people who want the game on or near release aren't going to readily find a used copy. The tradition of sharing also owes a lot to the fact that casual console piracy doesn't exist, unlike causal PC piracy which has been big since PC gaming was a thing. Most people can't readily copy a NES cartridge, nor does the average gamer possess the capability to mod their 360 to accept pirated discs (and then keep pace with updates). Different story on the PC, where "sharing" actually meant "piracy" for the most part. There's no need to sell a used copy if you can just copy it and both you and your friend get to keep the game, provided you don't care about the legalities. And hell, back in the 90s, none of us did.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  10. #490
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Hell I can remember in the mid 2000s I could go to my local video rental shop and rent PC games.
    Shit, really? 'Round here that practice died out around 1996 when CD burners became commonplace. Hell, for that very same reason all those games stores stopped accepting refunds for opened games and would only offer store credit (at steep discount) for trade-ins.
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  11. #491
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Shit, really? 'Round here that practice died out around 1996 when CD burners became commonplace. Hell, for that very same reason all those games stores stopped accepting refunds for opened games and would only offer store credit (at steep discount) for trade-ins.
    My local EB Games still sells PC games on the shelves so maybe things change slowly here in Australia. PC game trade-ins died before that but PC game rentals were still around up till about... 2006 if my memory serves me. Definitely no later than that though.

    CD burners weren't common in '96 here, actually I didn't see too many of them in the wild until about 1999. They were ridiculously expensive here initially (like all tech) and the only people outside of home businesses who had them that I knew of were... well, notorious neighbourhood pirates trading software through the Sneakernet.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  12. #492
    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    @soldant: Because consoles don't have Steam sales. Console games are, on average, significantly more expensive than PC games, so the additional costs have to be recouped elsewhere. There's a longstanding tradition of sharing discs and reselling used games in the console space, something which the PC never really had. The Xbone was asking people to give that up without giving anything in return. It was a stupid move.
    True, but it's not because they don't want to have them. Publishers and MS would likely love to switch to digital distribution and shave the retail margin off the rrp for all sorts of reasons. The problem is, retailers are still a significant share of the market - most of it on consoles - and they will refuse to stock games if they're being undercut online. That's what keeps digital distribution prices artificially high. The only reason Steam has made such a dent is because retailers have basically stopped stocking PC games.

  13. #493
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Shit, really? 'Round here that practice died out around 1996 when CD burners became commonplace. Hell, for that very same reason all those games stores stopped accepting refunds for opened games and would only offer store credit (at steep discount) for trade-ins.
    This is what I remember. A few computer tech stores would have a used-game shelf that I'd peruse back in 1992. It was about '98 when they stopped doing that. All the major brick-n-mortar stores had gutted their PC shelves for console games by then. Just a lot of shovelware and Blizzard games.
    I have no idea wht he allowed it, but penguins like the artic orcheanograby. Gare ams and losw as shwacricicaal. I haven't figured out the moral of this stay, are. y, Basefallwih ough.

  14. #494
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Except that sales don't have much to do with the DRM complaints, people objected to it because of flaky internet connections. PC gaming did have a long tradition of sharing copies and selling used games, but it died out quite a while back due to new online DRM developments and activation. And we helped it along by embracing Steam. Hell I can remember in the mid 2000s I could go to my local video rental shop and rent PC games. That stopped around 2007 when Steam really took off.
    So true. This is what you westerners call this, Pandora box opened something. I still don't get it, why you all welcome Steam?!

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The fact that it's been more prevalent with consoles is no doubt partly affected by the cost of new releases, but people who want the game on or near release aren't going to readily find a used copy. The tradition of sharing also owes a lot to the fact that casual console piracy doesn't exist, unlike causal PC piracy which has been big since PC gaming was a thing. Most people can't readily copy a NES cartridge, nor does the average gamer possess the capability to mod their 360 to accept pirated discs (and then keep pace with updates). Different story on the PC, where "sharing" actually meant "piracy" for the most part. There's no need to sell a used copy if you can just copy it and both you and your friend get to keep the game, provided you don't care about the legalities. And hell, back in the 90s, none of us did.
    Actually piracy has been prevailing ever since NES period. Nintendo made a terrible mistake of introducing floppy disc drive for NES, which could serve as what we commonly refer to as "Game Doctor" running copied discs. For Super Famicom, we also had a variety of Game Doctors too (which none was for SNES, I regret to admit that most of those "Super Famicom Game Doctors" were made in China). Manufacturers of those Game Doctors even advertised them on TV while Nintendo never bothered to advertise their products here.

    And the only reason why Xbox 360 doesn't have a serious piracy problem is Xbox Live, so as Playstation 3 on which people need a legit machine to play hot stuffs like Killzone with their friends. Wii games, on the other hand, were all pirated to hell. I still recall the once hot topic of how to get a dual-layer DVD-R to work on Wii since it seems Wii was designed so that it could prevent bootleg DVD-9 to be read properly.

    Online gaming is a good solution as disincentive for piracy. It's just that MS confuses online gaming and online DRM, incentive and disincentive.

  15. #495
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    So true. This is what you westerners call this, Pandora box opened something. I still don't get it, why you all welcome Steam?!



    Actually piracy has been prevailing ever since NES period. Nintendo made a terrible mistake of introducing floppy disc drive for NES, which could serve as what we commonly refer to as "Game Doctor" running copied discs. For Super Famicom, we also had a variety of Game Doctors too (which none was for SNES, I regret to admit that most of those "Super Famicom Game Doctors" were made in China). Manufacturers of those Game Doctors even advertised them on TV while Nintendo never bothered to advertise their products here.

    And the only reason why Xbox 360 doesn't have a serious piracy problem is Xbox Live, so as Playstation 3 on which people need a legit machine to play hot stuffs like Killzone with their friends. Wii games, on the other hand, were all pirated to hell. I still recall the once hot topic of how to get a dual-layer DVD-R to work on Wii since it seems Wii was designed so that it could prevent bootleg DVD-9 to be read properly.

    Online gaming is a good solution as disincentive for piracy. It's just that MS confuses online gaming and online DRM, incentive and disincentive.
    For me, Steam is about convenience. I like having my whole library at the click of a mouse, across all computers I own. I like auto-updates and the built in community features as well. It's worth the "DRM" trade off to me.

  16. #496
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    Came across this on the subject:

    http://www.geek.com/games/the-new-xb...tters-1559532/

    Although I think it kind of oversells the importance of these features (although I read somewhere that the lending thing is still going to be implemented somehow, need to check this...), I suppose it's worth noting that there were some feature-related reasons for the original idea...

  17. #497
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Actually piracy has been prevailing ever since NES period.
    At least here in Australia we didn't see NES piracy, at least not to my knowledge. Then again the NES wasn't quite as popular here.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    And the only reason why Xbox 360 doesn't have a serious piracy problem is Xbox Live, so as Playstation 3 on which people need a legit machine to play hot stuffs like Killzone with their friends. Wii games, on the other hand, were all pirated to hell.
    I disagree. Piracy has never been insanely popular because of the technical abilities required to mod the console. To mod a modern xbox 360 you need some decent soldering skills as well as acquiring a particular SATA controller to flash the right firmware onto the DVD drive. On older models it's somewhat more trivial. The PS3 meanwhile was more difficult to break even if it didn't need soldering skills, and Sony chased after Geohot and much of the rest of the scene to keep the console secure. Piracy is still an issue on both systems but nowhere near on the scale of PC piracy. Online play may be relevant for titles like CoD but for the vast majority of other titles it's not even a factor.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  18. #498
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    I dunno about you guys but retail shops effectively stopped selling PC games and had stopped taking returns on PC games years before that, way before Steam ever came out. Steam didn't really invent that model.

  19. #499
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus sabrage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    At least here in Australia we didn't see NES piracy, at least not to my knowledge.
    That's because the Famicom Disk System was only released in Japan.

  20. #500
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    I dunno about you guys but retail shops effectively stopped selling PC games and had stopped taking returns on PC games years before that, way before Steam ever came out. Steam didn't really invent that model.
    One might argue that Steam was the direct result of retailers abandoning PC games in the first place.

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