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  1. #101
    Maybe I misunderstood you Rii, but do you thing pirating is ok because if someone other than the developer gives the game to you at the point the developer doesn't own the game and therefore shouldn't get paid for it? You kept mentioning liberty, but atthe end of the day, your getting entertainment (that you don't need to live a happy, healthy life) for free from someone who has sunk A LOT of time, money and energy to create. And this person (or people, i guess I should say) want money for their work, because they need money to live, and want money in return for the effort they have put in (don't underestimate how much work it takes to make a game). You said something about how this viewpoint is a diseased capitalist one. Well these games are made in capitalist societies, and so requiremoeny in order to function. If you play by different rules, the only person who benefits is you. You are not reforming society or government by playing games without paying for them, you are merely benefitting from you own set of morals, while punishing those with a different set, who are the ones putting so much work into these games.

    Sorry for the rant, but I don't understand people who think pirating games is a right they have....

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Oh, you are that stupid.
    I guess when you're morally bankrupt anything seems stupid. Did you steal your Graphics card as well? Or did you base your purchasing decision based on reviews as a matter of interest?

  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    See the problem with copyright infringement in the digital age (and incidentally why copyright infringement is not stealing, whether you're looking at it from a legal or ethical perspective) is that data isn't really "physical" in the same sense that products are, and can be endlessly duplicated. In your example B is duplicating something that he purchased from A and distributing it to C.
    So we're in agreement on the idea that IP isn't property in the usual sense of the word? So what is it? The answer is that it's speech, and western civilisation has more than a bit to say on that particular subject.

    Let's say that I have in my legal possession a physical manifestation of what is known as Deus Ex: Human Revolution - in other words, I have the DVD. I also have an electron microscope. My friend across the room has a notepad. Examining the disc under the microscope I read off my observations: pit, land, pit, pit, land, pit, and so on ad infinitum. Four hundred years later my friend manually programs his DVD burner to write the sequence thus described onto a blank disc. At what point in this process did we commit a crime, and upon what basis would you describe it as such?

    I think you'd have a hard time arguing that "liberty and free speech" should include limitless duplication for the purposes of distribution as B sees fit any more than you could argue that they represent claiming another's work as your own toil is perfectly fine.
    I actually wouldn't ultimately argue that. The endgame of my argument here actually resembles the current copyright regime rather more closely than you might imagine, but to get there we need to tear down to the foundations - to the concept of property (all property, not merely intellectual) and what it is and isn't - and start again, because it's the foundations that are rotten and which have given rise to the current objectionable arrangement and which will forever impede anything resembling useful progress on the matter.
    Last edited by Rii; 18-08-2011 at 11:45 AM.

  4. #104
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    Sorry to bust in after only skimming the thread, but Amazon have updated their product page again and it now says that there's no region lock.
    Potential back-pedalling? As it was only ever a CDkey getting checked by a server, have they removed the region-check, or was it all lies and slander to start with?
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Deus-Ex-Huma...3663768&sr=8-2

  5. #105
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    So we're in agreement on the idea that IP isn't property in the usual sense of the word? So what is it? The answer is that it's speech, and western civilisation has more than a bit to say on that particular subject.
    It isn't speech. You can't claim that computer code, an art asset, or so on is "speech". The idea of intellectual property is supposed to imply ownership or something which is intangible in many cases, such that the people who created it are still credited and receive payment for use of it. It's not the same as free speech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Let's say that I have in my legal possession a physical manifestation of what is known as Deus Ex: Human Revolution...
    A crime? Well, four hundred years later it'd probably be public domain or similar, so it's unlikely anybody would care! But theoretically let's say that it isn't and current laws would still apply. It's pretty much the same as torrenting the game; you're duplicating the data, albeit in a rather novel way, without permission to do so. It's still copyright infringement. It's the same as just directly copying the DVD using two drives. It's not about the physical medium, it's about what the data represents. Which is probably why so many people can't figure out why copyright infringement isn't theft.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    ..we need to tear down to the foundations - to the concept of property (all property, not merely intellectual) and what it is and isn't ...
    Oh I completely agree, the current system is an absolute mess and idiots in the industry looking to maintain an iron fist on profits certainly aren't helping matters. But I don't think it's a justification for piracy. I think in general physical property is fairly well defined, but intellectual property exists in some sort of state where people (in general) can't try to decide if it's physical (i.e. "You're stealing stuff when you pirate!") or not. I get that piracy across P2P networks ultimately doesn't actually cost the developer anything (a "lost sale" is hardly a "cost") but I don't think that this should be a free ticket to pirate at will. I don't think it's wrong for a developer to expect to be paid for all of their effort, and if their price is wrong, people shouldn't buy it.

    Reminds me a bit of Cliffski and his ranting about the indie scene and piracy. I remember his articles about engaging with pirates and why they pirate his games. I remember thinking "It might have something to do with the price, and how most of them aren't very good..."

  6. #106

  7. #107
    Activated Node Hirmetrium's Avatar
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    That is excellent news. Glad to see a publisher making a decent decision for once. I assume this means there is no lock on the UK, and anybody can register it, but the lock on Russia/etc remains.


    Also, as per earlier discussion
    You are entitled to use the Software for your own use, but you are not entitled to: (i) sell, grant a security interest in or transfer reproductions of the Software to other parties in any way, nor to rent, lease or license the Software to others without the prior written consent of Valve; (ii) host or provide matchmaking services for the Software or emulate or redirect the communication protocols used by Valve in any network feature of the Software, through protocol emulation, tunneling, modifying or adding components to the Software, use of a utility program or any other techniques now known or hereafter developed, for any purpose including, but not limited to network play over the Internet, network play utilizing commercial or non-commercial gaming networks or as part of content aggregation networks, without the prior written consent of Valve; or (iii) exploit the Software or any of its parts for any commercial purpose.
    So valve bans VPN's unless you ask nicely? That's unfortunate. I would of said if I bought a product I could of done everything in my power to activate it, as its my purchase. Sad world we live in - here's hoping No Oceans eventually takes off.

  8. #108
    Obscure Node The True Turrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baka View Post
    A shame that it had to happen under the penalty of taking legal action. Also, unless I misread the last few posts by jaycw2309, that removal of the lock only applies to copies activated within the EU, so people from the US still have no means to get an Augmented Ed with all the bonus content.

    Thank you, RPS! And thanks to all the people who have participated in the discussion that followed the article!

    Update: jaycw2309 stated the following in the official thread:

    'Oh and yes the pc versions from UK will work in US and vice versa'

    Source: http://forums.eidosgames.com/showpos...&postcount=823
    Last edited by The True Turrican; 18-08-2011 at 02:36 PM.
    Why can't they just let us play the stuff we pay for?

  9. #109
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    and there it is, its nice to see a publisher listening to the concerns of the customers for once rather than sticking their fingers in their ears and pushing on ahead. well done them.

  10. #110
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    "Please note this affects PC BOXED RETAIL only. The region locking exists because they couldn't get all languages onto the DVD."
    So you can fit German, Italian, French and Spanish on one DVD, but only English on another, and only Russian on a third?

    Hahahaha.

  11. #111
    Obscure Node The True Turrican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trukkle View Post
    So you can fit German, Italian, French and Spanish on one DVD, but only English on another, and only Russian on a third?

    Hahahaha.
    I agree, it was a pretty weak argumentation to justify the region-lock in the first place.
    I'm not sure whether all of these language packs contain dubs for the respective languages rather than just subs in some cases, though.
    Why can't they just let us play the stuff we pay for?

  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Good to see a major publisher do the decent thing. Albeit unsurprising. Square-Enix was always (well, not always, but for the past year or so) more likely to do the decent thing than just about any other major publisher, which is probably why I found this move so disappointing in the first place.
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  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    @soldant and possibly others: will respond later.

    Fortunately my retailer had yet to process my refund and I've confirmed to them that in light of this latest news I would indeed still like to receive the game. I'm not happy about the Steamworks thing - which I didn't know about at the time I pre-purchased the game and likely would not have done so had I known - but through the ambiguous combination of a variety of factors the dice at this point come up in favour of 'buy'. So, well done Squeenix, I guess.

    NOTE FOR PUBLISHERS: Don't try and take advantage of the minimal goodwill generated by latter stage of this overreach-then-partial-retreat behaviour. Gamers will notice and become immune to its effects to the detriment of your entire product catalogue. See: Ubisoft, whose products no longer exist on PC so far as I'm concerned.
    Last edited by Rii; 18-08-2011 at 09:22 PM.

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