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  1. #681
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    How the crap do you have "positive homophobia"?
    Is the Homophobia shown in a positive light, like the good thing to do? Or does a character just show some homophobia? Having a Homophobic character in a novel doesn't make that novel homophobic. If it's the defining trait of the great Hero main character, then sure... but if it's just a feature, not shown as a positive thing, then no.

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of that explanation. Are you also aware of the word "buggery"? As in "to bugger" someone? Are you aware that it was a word used in criminal law to define homosexual acts between men, amongst other "unnatural" penetrative acts? Considering OSC's views and beliefs, I would hardly pass it off as anything closely resembling coincidence. They are shown to be attacking humanity, are they not? Let's see... the Buggers are attacking humanity. Hmm... Yeah, you don't see it?

    He knew that word. He knew its history. He didn't use it for the fun of it. He. Was. Making. A. Point.
    Quite aware of it, yes. And yes, the Buggers are attacking humanity. But, the Buggers are ultimately found to be misunderstood (they attacked humans not realising they were sentient, things sort of spiralled from that), and are redeemed in the end. So, the point he was making is that, due to politics and human nature and misunderstandings between people, terrible things happen, but ultimately that's the wrong way to go, and if everyone (humans & formics, gays & non-gays) just get together and communicate, everything is cool. Or, the Buggers may have thrown the first stone, but ultimately, their persecution and eradication is a bad thing, so homophobia, and the persecution of homosexuals is a bad thing, drummed up by man's natural instincts to attack what they see as alien, and through political expediency and exigency. Hmmm... you don't see that? That in the end OSC actually doesn't want to attack homosexuals.

    Why attribute to malice something which may have just been an unfortunate choice of derogatory term for the antagonists of the book?
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    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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  2. #682
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Chances are you'll use my money to get pissed, but as long as you don't hurt anyone in the process, then fine.
    Eheheheh. Alcoholism can and does hurt a looooooootta people.
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  3. #683
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Is the Homophobia shown in a positive light, like the good thing to do? Or does a character just show some homophobia? Having a Homophobic character in a novel doesn't make that novel homophobic. If it's the defining trait of the great Hero main character, then sure... but if it's just a feature, not shown as a positive thing, then no.
    Card is, by nature, homophobic. You cannot separate him from his work. Some authors you can - him? No.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Why attribute to malice something which may have just been an unfortunate choice of derogatory term for the antagonists of the book?
    Jeez, how naive are you? There is no such thing as an unfortunate choice of derogatory term. He chose it, and used it, for a reason.

    If OSC doesn't "want to attack" homosexuals, as you imply, why the flying fuck cakes does he do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Eheheheh. Alcoholism can and does hurt a looooooootta people.
    Yes, it can and does.


  4. #684
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Yes, it can and does.
    So would you read a book written by an alcoholic, with the reasonable assumption that the advance/proceeds for said book probably allowed the author to continue a destructive lifestyle?

    As for espousing values antithetical to modern open society, Wagner was kind of a fascist. Ride of the Valkyries is a fantastic fascist anthem. Should we stop listening to his music?
    Last edited by Nalano; 15-03-2012 at 10:41 PM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  5. #685
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    So would you read a book written by an alcoholic, with the reasonable assumption that the advance/proceeds for said book probably allowed the author to continue a destructive lifestyle?
    It is a situation I haven't yet encountered, so I have no answer. Alcoholism is often a self-destructive problem that requires medical or psychological intervention due to its nature. Being a homophobic bigot and an active (financially and otherwise) anti-rights activist is not the same.


  6. #686
    Network Hub Cable's Avatar
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    Everybody who has ever written a book has written in through their own personal set of biases and prejudices, Card's is more obvious than others and if you choose not to read his books because of it that's fine but it's ok for people to read them if they choose to. It is not possible to separate any creator from their work they influence it's entire creation, how can a book have nothing to do with it's author?

  7. #687
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Card is, by nature, homophobic. You cannot separate him from his work. Some authors you can - him? No.
    Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Jeez, how naive are you? There is no such thing as an unfortunate choice of derogatory term. He chose it, and used it, for a reason.
    A derogatory term for an Insect like antagonist. Unfortunate that it also happened to be a derogatory term for homosexuals. The lack of any other homophobia, and the ultimately sympathetic view on the Buggers leads me to believe that it wasn't chosen to attack homosexuals... if he was making an analogy between homosexuals and the Buggers, why would he ultimately redeem them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    If OSC doesn't "want to attack" homosexuals, as you imply, [B]why the flying fuck cakes does he do it?
    You interpret the use of the term Bugger as showing that OSC was drawing similarities between the Formics and Homosexuals, that it was a derogatory term for both, and was used as such. But if you continue that interpretation, the only conclusion you can come to, with the Buggers being shown to be misunderstood and their persecution as a negative, is that OSC ultimately sympathises with homosexuals, as he does the Buggers. So... you can't interpret the Buggers being an analogy to homosexuals, unless you accept that he's ultimately painting homosexuals in a favourable light. I think that interpretation is pretty silly... I didn't mean it... but I think it shows that the interpretation of the use of Bugger as a deliberate attack on homosexuals is also a bit silly.

    What I'm saying is you can separate OSC's homophobia from his work, at least with Ender's Game. I don't find it has any homophobia in it, and no credible interpretation or analysis I've seen argues that it does contain homophobia.
    Last edited by Unaco; 15-03-2012 at 10:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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  8. #688
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    It is a situation I haven't yet encountered, so I have no answer. Alcoholism is often a self-destructive problem that requires medical or psychological intervention due to its nature.
    Take away the "self-". And there's still Wagner. Hell, thanks to the nature of the times, one could find fault in just about every creative pre-1960.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  9. #689
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Why not?
    Because his attitudes and ideas are in his books. Whether it's subtle and hinted at or full-blown bullshit la Hamlet's Father, it's there. You buy his books, you give him money, you fuel his activities. That is not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    A derogatory term for an Insect like antagonist. Unfortunate that it also happened to be a derogatory term for homosexuals. The lack of any other homophobia, and the ultimately sympathetic view on the Buggers leads me to believe that it wasn't chosen to attack homosexuals... if he was making an analogy between homosexuals and the Buggers, why would he ultimately redeem them?
    Who knows? There's nothing unfortunate about it, though, considering the term had been in use for over four hundred years before Card even farted for the first time, so combined with his seemingly-encyclopaedic knowledge of homosexuals and homosexuality, one is on shaky ground if suggesting it's mere coincidence

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    You interpret the use of the term Bugger as showing that OSC was drawing similarities between the Formics and Homosexuals, that it was a derogatory term for both, and was used as such. But if you continue that interpretation, the only conclusion you can come to, with the Buggers being shown to be misunderstood and their persecution as a negative, is that OSC ultimately sympathises with homosexuals, as he does the Buggers. So... you can't interpret the Buggers being an analogy to homosexuals, unless you accept that he's ultimately painting homosexuals in a favourable light. I think that interpretation is pretty silly... I didn't mean it... but I think it shows that the use of Bugger as a deliberate attack on homosexuals is also a bit silly.
    I interpret it as I see it. A race called "The Buggers", whether in colloquial terms or otherwise, are the antagonists as they attack humanity. How else can one see it? Whether they're redeemed or not is completely irrelevant, the parallels have been drawn. I've not read it - I certainly have no intention of reading it - and there are people better placed to argue that point. *My* point was that it clearly was linked, that the parallels are there and that it was a deliberate choice on the part of OSC to term them as such.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    What I'm saying is you can separate OSC's homophobia from his work, at least with Ender's Game. I don't find it has any homophobia in it, and no credible interpretation or analysis I've seen argues that it does contain homophobia.
    And that does not absolve him at all on any level, whether it's Ender's Game (often a gateway into his work) or any other piece he's written. His views, his financial activities, his support - you cannot separate his views from his work at all. They are wound together tightly - looser on some titles, more visible on others - but the ties are there regardless of the piece.


  10. #690
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    I interpret it as I see it. A race called "The Buggers", whether in colloquial terms or otherwise, are the antagonists as they attack humanity. How else can one see it? Whether they're redeemed or not is completely irrelevant, the parallels have been drawn. I've not read it - I certainly have no intention of reading it - and there are people better placed to argue that point. *My* point was that it clearly was linked, that the parallels are there and that it was a deliberate choice on the part of OSC to term them as such.
    So... The use of Bugger is relevant, and the fact the Formics are attacking humanity is relevant, but not the ultimate resolution to the book? Why not? If it clearly was linked, why does the ultimate redemption of the Buggers not come into your interpretation? Why ignore that part and just take the beginning out of context? Apply the interpretation consistently, or not at all.

    If, as you say, OSC has deep seated homophobic attitudes that leech into every aspect of his work and life, he sure f*cked up by making the Buggers misunderstood and not monsters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  11. #691
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Althea's Avatar
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    Well, I can't answer that without reading it, can I? But you can also say "Well, if he's such a homophobe, why does he have gay characters in his books?", can't you? Wait... Lovecraft was a racist and he had ethnic characters in his books. Oops.


  12. #692
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Althea View Post
    Well, I can't answer that without reading it, can I?
    And here is where the argument ends. Game, set, match, Unaco.
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  13. #693
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    Also, if you must continue, have your own thread.

    Just flicking through House of Silk. Been a fair number of years since I've read Sherlock Holmes so I'm probably not the best person to try and compare it to the "originals". It does seem to be trying a bit hard to be like the originals some times though.

  14. #694
    Network Hub Cable's Avatar
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    I'm reading through Do Androids dream of electric sheep again. I still really like it but i still regret a bit that i read it before i watched blade runner and so was a bit disappointed by the movie instead of just enjoying it for what it was.

    I still haven't read any Sherlock Holmes, it's on the list though, honest!

  15. #695
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jockie's Avatar
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    I read Ready Player One, by Ernest Cline for research purposes (see my post several pages back if you can be arsed) and have mixed feelings on it. It's essentially about an MMO that has become the dominant reality for a lot of people in the near future as energy crisis have left much of the world in poverty. In the MMO, the deceased creator has left a series of puzzles or 'easter eggs' and the first person to discover them wins his billion dollar fortune. The creator is also obsessed with 80's games, films and music which all play a part.

    As a page turner, it's great. The pacing is tight as hell and it flows off the page. However, the constant pop culture referencing kinds of floats into self-indulgence and well, at times it's all a bit wish-fulfillment fantasy (lacking in plausability). The 'real-world' segments felt a bit flat too, (possibly this was a stylistic choice). It's what you might term a 'cracking yarn' great fun while you're reading it, but it falls apart a little on further analysis. In case your wondering how the MMO cringe factor fits in - it's very well researched and the author knows his stuff, but at times again, it's not all that plausible.
    Last edited by Jockie; 16-03-2012 at 12:59 AM.
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  16. #696
    Lesser Hivemind Node westyfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    I'm reading through Do Androids dream of electric sheep again. I still really like it but i still regret a bit that i read it before i watched blade runner and so was a bit disappointed by the movie instead of just enjoying it for what it was.
    I had the same problem. Read the book, loved it, watched the film, didn't enjoy it as much. I can appreciate it from a technical standpoint, but it misses so much out that I thought was really important in the book.

    Still reading Alastair Reynolds's Century Rain, haven't got much further but the upcoming Easter holiday will provide some prime reading time.

  17. #697
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by westyfield View Post
    I had the same problem. Read the book, loved it, watched the film, didn't enjoy it as much. I can appreciate it from a technical standpoint, but it misses so much out that I thought was really important in the book.
    That's funny, because I thought that PKDick's books were best suited for movies (and there certainly are a lot of 'em made of his works) because he crafts great themes - likely due to his storied history with LSD - that peter out after a hundred pages. I read DADoEC before I watched Blade Runner, and I loved 'em both. I may even like Blade Runner more.

    Currently reading Daniel Cavicchi's Listening and Longing.
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  18. #698
    Network Hub Cable's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I read DADoEC before I watched Blade Runner, and I loved 'em both. I may even like Blade Runner more.
    I think I mainly missed the narrative complexity of the book, and I didn't think all the questions about what really makes us human came across as well. I felt the focus on the animals etc was key to the book but was just completely passed over in the movie. To be honest the main problem was probably expecting a faithful translation into film as opposed to it being it's own thing mainly.

  19. #699
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    I much prefer the movie, as it's a better, more focused story. However the book has a wider variety of themes and is also a good read - to be honest, the two have as much in common as From Hell's adaptation and its source material. A Scanner Darkly is the closest PKD (was about to write 'Dick adaptation'! No) adaptation I think.

  20. #700
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cable View Post
    To be honest the main problem was probably expecting a faithful translation into film as opposed to it being it's own thing mainly.
    Fuck faithful translations. The medium is different. A Clockwork Orange and A Clockwork Orange are two separate and distinct works, and they're both awesome.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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