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  1. #21
    Network Hub Nahru's Avatar
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    This issue, as is the case with many things, is not black or white. Purple, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    A VERY complex situation in which both sides have good claims, both sides have done shady things, and both sides have commit atrocities. As long as people keep trying to pretend one side is "good" and the other side is "bad", there can be no compromise.
    Complex it is, both sides have (relatively) good claims - sure, that both sides have committed atrocities I think no reasonable person can deny. But to simply equate both sides is a complete error, I think. Because, in a war, with few exceptions, always one side is the aggressor and the other is a victim. I cannot agree, ever, that those sides are equally "guilty", or responsible for war, nor can it be said that they are all the same. Sure, both sides can and often do commit terrible acts, for whatever reason, but the aggressor (as far as I know) is a side that does the majority - a vast majority - of such acts.

    Whether one side commits atrocities has nothing to do with whether they are the aggressors or victims in a war. Just because the victim does terrible things to its aggressor, if they have the chance to do so, does not change their status as a victim in a war.

    Also, an aggressor, as far as I know, does such acts in a scope that far exceeds those done by a victim. Surely, one could not reasonably expect, I think, Israel to be a victim in this entire thing? Yes, they have been subject to terrible actions done by the Palestinians, but those are (to my knowledge), offset by greater actions of the Israelis. Just because Palestinians have done, and continue to do what they do, does not change the fact that they are being occupied and slowly destroyed by Israel, who have time and again proved unreceptive for greater compromises.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Personally I'd be down with Palestine and Israel being merged into one state, but of course that would never fly because the Arabs would outnumber the Jewish Israelis and the Israeli government doesn't want to give over political control.
    If there are more Arabs than Jews in Israel, how can it be a Jewish state?
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  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    And you, of course, view yourself as better than them, despite the fact that just about the only thing you've said thus far is that critics of Israel are anti-semitic. I suppose that means Jewish critics of Israel are self-hating Jews.


    Look at what I said again most people on the west that take Palestine's side are, this isn't just a phenomenon I've seen a lot of people seem to see this a lot smarter then I am, I just said what these other people are saying.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by somini View Post
    If there are more Arabs than Jews in Israel, how can it be a Jewish state?
    Well there in lies the problem. A simple solution might be to quit thinking of themselves of Arabs or Jews and perhaps think of themselves as human beings. A radical suggestion I realise but as far as I'm aware we all genetically the same, and despite certain religious beliefs we are all derived from the same stock.

  5. #25
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    Kadayi : that's highly utopical and unrealistic, and a bad thing to hope because it will never happen, hence if you would base your reflexions upon that idea that would lead you nowhere.
    Or maybe you're right, that's the ideas we should all hope for because that's what we all want the most, the best possible ending, but the most difficult too, and it's not so much out of our reach if you take into accounts that those are ideas needing to be spread in order to become more present.
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  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Well there in lies the problem. A simple solution might be to quit thinking of themselves of Arabs or Jews and perhaps think of themselves as human beings. A radical suggestion I realise but as far as I'm aware we all genetically the same, and despite certain religious beliefs we are all derived from the same stock.
    Surely that can't happen. Those religious beliefs prevent it.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivlo View Post
    Kadayi : that's highly utopical and unrealistic
    Dozens of states do just fine with highly ethnicly mixed societies. It's not always easy, and there's no doubt places where you'd rather not be part of an ethnic minority. However, given the problems of both the current situation and the doubtful viability of a two (or three?) state solution, the possibility of a single state shouldn't, I think, be so easily discounted. That said, I think it's highly doubtful this will come to pass, or be seriously discussed, anytime soon.
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  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    I'll give you this: You're amazing at completely missing the most important point in this whole matter - Religion.
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  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahru2 View Post
    I think. Because, in a war, with few exceptions, always one side is the aggressor and the other is a victim.
    Yup, whoever writes the history book is either the victim or coming to the aid of the victims.

    Also, an aggressor, as far as I know, does such acts in a scope that far exceeds those done by a victim.
    Yeah, if two kids start wailing on each other and one gets his ass kicked because the other kid knows Jiu Jitsu, I am not inclined to call either kid a victim. I am gonna call them both dumbasses (or "aggressors" to use the convention :p)

    Surely, one could not reasonably expect, I think, Israel to be a victim in this entire thing? Yes, they have been subject to terrible actions done by the Palestinians, but those are (to my knowledge), offset by greater actions of the Israelis. Just because Palestinians have done, and continue to do what they do, does not change the fact that they are being occupied and slowly destroyed by Israel, who have time and again proved unreceptive for greater compromises.
    Honestly, I would be interested in seeing a proper tally of who did what. But the problem is that Israel, at least now, is a state with a standing military. Palestine is a loosely defined group. And as anyone who knows even the first thing about guerilla warfare understands: You can sure pad the hell out of the "civilian deaths" statistic by operating your guerilla forces out of residential areas and taking the guns away from the corpses before the cameras get there (no uniforms). And you can cover for those "civilian deaths" by saying "We had no choice but to fire upon that hospital. There was a rocket launcher on the roof, and they were targeting OUR civilians"

    Do I equate the two? No. But I also have a hard time really picking one side that I feel is in the right and I think that anyone who has an easy time is over-simplifying things or operating based on something other than the sheer facts.
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  10. #30
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    Well there's an interesting question to ask ourselves with our western secularist democratic perspective: Which is more appealing? A state for Jews, or a Jewish State?
    Last edited by Kevin; 12-07-2013 at 09:16 AM.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    Well there's an interesting question to ask ourselves with our western secularist democratic perspective: Which is more appealing? A state for Jews, or a Jewish State?
    Personally, a Jewish State and an Islamic Republic are both on the same level.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by vivlo View Post
    Kadayi : that's highly utopical and unrealistic, and a bad thing to hope because it will never happen, hence if you would base your reflexions upon that idea that would lead you nowhere.
    Or maybe you're right, that's the ideas we should all hope for because that's what we all want the most, the best possible ending, but the most difficult too, and it's not so much out of our reach if you take into accounts that those are ideas needing to be spread in order to become more present.(lalala)
    If tomorrow everyone woke up with no memory of the past would they still be nations, religions, tribes? Or are all of these things in fact simply mental constructs people subscribe to? Are people who are unable to let go of the past not in reality merely caught in the monkey trap of inherited beliefs and tradition?

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Yeah, if two kids start wailing on each other and one gets his ass kicked because the other kid knows Jiu Jitsu, I am not inclined to call either kid a victim. I am gonna call them both dumbasses (or "aggressors" to use the convention :p)
    Apart from the fact that we're not talking about two kids are we? We're talking about a military occupation, suppression of a people and the gradual efforts by the aggressor to annex said land.

    Honestly, I would be interested in seeing a proper tally of who did what. But the problem is that Israel, at least now, is a state with a standing military. Palestine is a loosely defined group. And as anyone who knows even the first thing about guerilla warfare understands: You can sure pad the hell out of the "civilian deaths" statistic by operating your guerilla forces out of residential areas and taking the guns away from the corpses before the cameras get there (no uniforms). And you can cover for those "civilian deaths" by saying "We had no choice but to fire upon that hospital. There was a rocket launcher on the roof, and they were targeting OUR civilians"
    But again you're framing this from the perspective that there's an equality of situation. Consider the occupation of France by the Germans during WW2. In broad terms what's the differential between that and what's been going on in Gaza etc? Save the fact that it's been going on for a lot longer? A foreign power has invaded another region and suppressed the existing populace with a view to annexing the territory. There's no 'well these guys fighting are as bad as these guys so it balances out' about it, or makes the occupation somehow more acceptable on the international stage. If the occupation of France had gone on for 30 years would you be telling the French to quit resisting?

    Worth watching: -

    http://vimeo.com/42568730

    It doesn't paint a great picture of either side, but it does put across the whole reality distortion field that comes with an insistence that a land was given to a people by a god, especially when this is regarded as a fact.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 11-07-2013 at 10:14 AM.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    f tomorrow everyone woke up with no memory of the past would they still be nations, religions, tribes? Or are all of these things in fact simply mental constructs people subscribe to? Are people who are unable to let go of the past not in reality merely caught in the monkey trap of inherited beliefs and tradition?


    I think if throughout history we have been putting ourselves in different tribes and fighting with the other Tribes a lot, something instinctual inherently in us calls out for Tribalness. So they are right it will never happen, if we got rid of religion we would just think up another thing that distances from other people, unfortunate but true!

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I think if throughout history we have been putting ourselves in different tribes and fighting with the other Tribes a lot, something instinctual inherently in us calls out for Tribalness. So they are right it will never happen, if we got rid of religion we would just think up another thing that distances from other people, unfortunate but true!
    So first you're saying that we're incapable of evolving socially, and secondary to that because you believe we're incapable of evolving (despite no evidence to support this assertion in the face of centuries of social progress) then the existing situation is perfectly acceptable? Your limitations really are quite astounding it has to be said. I'm curious do you think that atheism is somehow merely some other form of religion?
    Last edited by Kadayi; 11-07-2013 at 02:07 PM.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Apart from the fact that we're not talking about two kids are we? We're talking about a military occupation, suppression of a people and the gradual efforts by the aggressor to annex said land.
    You're right, I probably gave them too much credit.

    If I see two babies start biting each other...

    But again you're framing this from the perspective that there's an equality of situation. Consider the occupation of France by the Germans during WW2. In broad terms what's the differential between that and what's been going on in Gaza etc? Save the fact that it's been going on for a lot longer? A foreign power has invaded another region and suppressed the existing populace with a view to annexing the territory. There's no 'well these guys fighting are as bad as these guys so it balances out' about it, or makes the occupation somehow more acceptable on the international stage. If the occupation of France had gone on for 30 years would you be telling the French to quit resisting?
    A Very Brief History of the Gaza Strip: In response to Israel declaring statehood, multiple Arab nations (Egypt, Syria, and Jordan) invaded the newly sovereign-ish territory of Israel. Long story short, Israel won and the Gaza Strip became a self-governed region. It was originally governed by palestinians, the palestinian government collapsed, Egypt stepped in and did a pretty piss-poor job of governing it (basically occupying it, which was probably against the terms of the armistice agreement). Fast forward to the Six-Day war: That one Israel DID start, although one can argue it was just a case of a cold war going hot (Operation Flashpoint!), and they took a fair amount of territory in the process, including the Gaza Strip.

    Also: it isn't much different than the occupation of Northern Mexico by the United States, except THAT has been going on for even longer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican...93American_War (Although, that is Texas, so I guess we 'mericans probably got the short end of the stick :p)
    Or, you know, any other nation that EVER conquered or annexed a part of another nation. But nah, all them borders were made by Thanos at the dawn of time and have never and will never shift :p

    But you are correct. It isn't much different than any other war. The difference is the news coverage and the need for people to have good guys and bad guys (even World War 2 isn't QUITE as one-sided and black and white as people like to believe. It is much less grey than WWI, but it is still pretty grey when you consider the circumstances) and so people on both sides tend to ignore/justify the actions of one group while simultaneously condemning the actions of the other.

    Israeli Soldier kills Palestinian Guerilla: Either a heroic defender of Israel killed a terrorist who was gonna rape babies OR Evil Israely Overlord kills innocent freedom fighter
    Palestinian Guerilla kills Israeli Soldier: Heroic defender of Israel murdered by baby raper OR Poor innocent school teacher forced to kill Israeli puppy drowner in self defense
    Last edited by gundato; 11-07-2013 at 02:31 PM.
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  16. #36
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    So first you're saying that we're incapable of evolving socially, and secondary to that because you believe we're incapable of evolving (despite no evidence to support this assertion in the face of centuries of social progress) then the existing situation is perfectly acceptable?


    I didn't say that did I in fact I think we have evolved socially and we are continuing to evolve since we are getting peaceful as a world I think. Im just saying the thing in us that wants tribalness is very very strong, I mean it goes fro mreligion to football teams, how many fights have we seen that have started because someone didn't like someone elses football team. Its hardwired in to us. Trying to change it is like trying to push a mountain, we might pull it off gradually but its going to take a bloody long time!

    I'm curious do you think that atheism is somehow merely some other form of religion?


    I do think its turning into some sort of tribe, we are the no god tribe all about rationality and science and were going against the tribe that likes god and mysticalness. Well the prominent athiest anyway it seems, unfortunately there going against quite a few tribes there so its not going down all to well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    If I see two babies start biting each other...
    Either be serious or bow out. If you can't bring anything substantial to the table in terms of an interchange, you're wasting my time.

    A Very Brief History of the Gaza Strip: In response to Israel declaring statehood, multiple Arab nations (Egypt, Syria, and Jordan) invaded the newly sovereign-ish territory of Israel. Long story short, Israel won and the Gaza Strip became a self-governed region. It was originally governed by palestinians, the palestinian government collapsed, Egypt stepped in and did a pretty piss-poor job of governing it (basically occupying it, which was probably against the terms of the armistice agreement). Fast forward to the Six-Day war: That one Israel DID start, although one can argue it was just a case of a cold war going hot (Operation Flashpoint!), and they took a fair amount of territory in the process, including the Gaza Strip.
    And how does any of that make whats going on acceptable exactly? How are the events of the past in any way a licence to continued occupation and annexation?

    Also: it isn't much different than the occupation of Northern Mexico by the United States, except THAT has been going on for even longer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican...93American_War (Although, that is Texas, so I guess we 'mericans probably got the short end of the stick :p)
    Or, you know, any other nation that EVER conquered or annexed a part of another nation. But nah, all them borders were made by Thanos at the dawn of time and have never and will never shift :p
    And events that happened in the 18th century somehow make modern military occupation and annexation perfectly acceptable now? Are you somehow implying that 'might is right' over rules the rights of a people to self determination? That choice and freedom from oppression is only OK for the US yes?

    But you are correct. It isn't much different than any other war. The difference is the news coverage and the need for people to have good guys and bad guys (even World War 2 isn't QUITE as one-sided and black and white as people like to believe. It is much less grey than WWI, but it is still pretty grey when you consider the circumstances) and so people on both sides tend to ignore/justify the actions of one group while simultaneously condemning the actions of the other.
    By what measure is invasion and annexation of another country ever justified?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I didn't say that did I in fact I think we have evolved socially and we are continuing to evolve since we are getting peaceful as a world I think. Im just saying the thing in us that wants tribalness is very very strong, I mean it goes fro mreligion to football teams, how many fights have we seen that have started because someone didn't like someone elses football team. Its hardwired in to us. Trying to change it is like trying to push a mountain, we might pull it off gradually but its going to take a bloody long time!
    Football matches happen all the time, but the actual number of violent/fatal incidents is surprisingly small. Certainly incidents do occur, but the world is a far less violent place now than it was in the past: -

    http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pink..._violence.html

    To promote this fallacy of violent tribalism being a constant as a backdoor to acceptability and the condoning of violence and oppression is to ignore that facts. The norm is for diverse groups to generally get along, not engage in constant warfare, because constant warfare is not sustainable.

    I do think its turning into some sort of tribe, we are the no god tribe all about rationality and science and were going against the tribe that likes god and mysticalness. Well the prominent athiest anyway it seems, unfortunately there going against quite a few tribes there so its not going down all to well.
    I didn't ask whether atheism was a tribe. I asked with you thought it was a religion. To imply a commonality of thought or belief is anything more than an agreement is farcical. It is only when commonality of thought or belief is ritualized and codified that it takes on the role of being tribal. A great many people here are all atheists, but I sincerely doubt that many of us have much in common beyond a belief that there are no gods running things.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 11-07-2013 at 10:53 PM.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Either be serious or bow out. If you can't bring anything substantial to the table in terms of an interchange, you're wasting my time.
    Deepest sympathies. This is a super serious matter and Israel, the Palestinians, and their neighbors are perfectly reasonable, rational, and not at all acting like angry two year olds



    And how does any of that make whats going on acceptable exactly? How are the events of the past in any way a licence to continued occupation and annexation?
    Isn't that the exact arguments the Palestinians and various Arab Nations are using? That events of the past (Israelis not living there) is an excuse to occupy and annex the territory back from the Israelis? Or wait, do we have an arbitrary cutoff where we are allowed to start caring? Or stop caring? I dunno.

    And events that happened in the 18th century somehow make modern military occupation and annexation perfectly acceptable now? Are you somehow implying that 'might is right' over rules the rights of a people to self determination? That choice and freedom from oppression is only OK for the US yes?
    ...
    "Choice and freedom from oppression is only OK for the US" is what you got out of "We 'mericans done did stole Texas"? Seriously?

    The point is that there is a historical precedent for this. I don't know if you have ever been to texas, but that place is VERY Mexican outside of the REALLY klan-friendly regions. New Mexico has a significant population of Native Americans (and Mexicans :p). Maybe not everyone is happy about it and maybe a lot of groups want to secede or undo the past, but people aren't throwing pipe bombs and murdering each other (over that. We are 'merica, we murder each other over the important stuff like who done did sexed up someone's baby daddy). People are acting like adults and realizing "Yeah, we got screwed and it stinks. No, I don't really like my political leaders or my country. But neither do most of my neighbors who came over on the Mayflower. But I have a peaceful environment where I am not persecuted and where I can raise a family the way I wish to".


    By what measure is invasion and annexation of another country ever justified?
    Maybe it isn't justified (there actually ARE pretty good arguments for why Israel stole the territories... most of which don't apply in this era of missiles and airplanes, but there were reasons that kind of made sense at the time :p), but it has happened.

    But screw the two year olds. Let's actually think about the people who live there, not the politicians and war mongers. The Israeli government is rather "modern" in its civil rights issues (barring the standard few "Uhm.. seriously?" issues) . I am not up to date on the Palestinian stance on human rights and what not, but for the sake of argument let's assume they are also pretty much not going to persecute any major groups. Then what is the difference between who is in charge and who isn't? Just a question of which politicians and if they get to call themselves a "Jewish state with lots of Arabs" or "An arab state with lots of circumcised penises" So yeah, I am gonna call them a bunch of petulant children if they are still fighting and going crazy over things that can EASILY be resolved by discussions and peace, not open warfare.
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  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Look at what I said again most people on the west that take Palestine's side are, this isn't just a phenomenon I've seen a lot of people seem to see this a lot smarter then I am, I just said what these other people are saying.
    At least when you backpedal, you backpedal honestly.
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  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    To promote this fallacy of violent tribalism being a constant as a backdoor to acceptability and the condoning of violence and oppression is to ignore that facts. The norm is for diverse groups to generally get along, not engage in constant warfare, because constant warfare is not sustainable.


    Really...? That's why in Europe we have a bubbling continuing rage at Muslims for being over here and having the religion, thats why a lot of right-wing parties are getting elected in a lot of places. That's why in Egypt there is a continuing path to Civil War because the Muslims and The others can't seem to decide which government they want and who that government should be run by. Thats why we Have Gaza and Isreal.

    I'm sorry we are slowly getting less violent and I accepted that but our Tribalness is still in display, and if we aren't violent to the tribe we are very suspicious about them and want nothing to do with them and want them out of the country we feel is our tribe.

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