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  1. #1
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Civ V: Brave New World discussion

    Picked this up yesterday, and wow have they changed a lot of stuff. I gave up after a few hours when I realized I had no clue how to effectively manage the new culture victory conditions. When I get some more time I'm going to start over on a lower difficulty level so I can re-learn the game.

    Most intriguing addition: Trade routes can be used to share (surplus?) food and production from one of your cities with another. Don't fully understand it yet, but the possibilities seem rich indeed. Trade in general seems to be a great addition, and it's much more user-friendly than I expected.

    Most intriguing change: Cultural victories no longer seem to be shackled to empire size, though defending against them still requires a small geographic footprint. You can rack up policies like a madman now (Poland seems especially well-suited to doing so).

    Most frustrating addition: Cultural victories seem kind of complicated. It now reminds me much more of some sort of euro-style boardgame, what with having to fill up various bars to accrue special tokens (works of art) to, in turn, fill up another bar. I think it will ultimately be an improvement, as it certainly requires more involvement from the player, but the game does a really poor job of explaining it.

    Thoughts so far?

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    I wont' know until Friday because it's not out in Euroland yet >:|
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    since 2010, it seems the devs have made knee-jerk reactions to literally everything the players used to do or complain about

    many high-risk, high-reward elements have become low-risk, low-reward

    the wide spectrum of viable builds has been systematically trimmed, forcing every empire to be mid-sized

    they made your land and resources dictate your playstyle more and more which means less interesting decisions and more obvious ones


    I think it's probably a more interesting game for people who don't enjoy being forced to make hard decisions and can't handle being punished for playing poorly

    But even if decisions are less important, the more hardcore players can still find ways to compete. It'll probably be more subtle. Stacking up tiny advantages over the course of a long game will still result in victory, but I think it'll take much longer

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    The cultural victory conditions and the non-aggressive late gameplay were sort of rubbish. I'm looking forward to the Euroland unlock...

    Gamespot's only criticism is that it doesn't come with the content from the previous expansion...

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drinking with Skeletons View Post
    Most frustrating addition: Cultural victories seem kind of complicated. It now reminds me much more of some sort of euro-style boardgame, what with having to fill up various bars to accrue special tokens (works of art) to, in turn, fill up another bar. I think it will ultimately be an improvement, as it certainly requires more involvement from the player, but the game does a really poor job of explaining it.
    There's basically three things to consider when we're talking cultural victory:

    1) How much culture you have. Works of art are like miniature culture bombs and/or miniature wonders.
    2) How much culture they have. Culture can now be used defensively.
    3) Why they should care about you. In this sense, religion, diplomacy and trade becomes paramount: If you want to influence those far-flung guys who don't have a clue who you are, caravans, diplomats and missionaries will all propagate cultural diffusion in the form of tourism. If your tourism rating is higher than their cultural rating, you have effectively conquered them. This works both ways: Opening trade to another cultural center sees your citizens awed by theirs, too.

    This means a few properties that were not extant in previous iterations of Civ5:

    1) Small empires are not necessary for cultural victory: You only lose out on social policies that way, not total cultural output, and the end-game for cultural victory is based on raw cultural output and your ability to exploit it - either through trade, religion or diplomacy (all of which give bonuses to cultural diffusion).
    2) That means that it's not just a passive race for top culture pick. It also means that in order to beat another cultural juggernaut, you may have to bomb him - figuratively or literally - or censure him with the new World Congress. The World Congress is another arms race: You spend delegates on votes, and victories give you more delegates for the next World Congress. In that way, it's forcing pacifists to interact with the world.
    3) Ideology is a means of passively causing unrest in all your neighbors: If you are one of the three ideologies and you're being successful, all the less successful neighbors of the other two will start clamoring for change. This also works both ways: If your citizens are discontent with you, they will seek out nations of opposing ideologies.
    4) That means that happiness can be used offensively, just as in Civilization 4.

    All in all, there's a lot more to do other than war with one another.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-07-2013 at 12:58 AM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  6. #6
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    it's not culture victory. it's based on tourism output...

    and tourism is a late-game thing that grows slowly whereas culture is going to build up earlier and in larger quantities. basically it's impossible to achieve against a competent opponent

  7. #7
    Lesser Hivemind Node Oak's Avatar
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    Tourism is only generated by having cultural buildings, and only defended against by generating culture. How is it not a culture victory?

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    This sounds awesome. I scoffed at the price for an expansion, but it really sounds great.

    Has anyone played the included scenarios? What're those like?

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    I've discovered something potentially gamebreaking:

    Now that social policies are coming in a lot quicker, Piety becomes quite powerful in the right hands. Completing it gives you a great prophet for a religion, as well as an extra "reformation" religious ability.

    One of the base religious abilities you can get is either pagodas, cathedrals or mosques. They act as buildings you can purchase with faith in any city that has your religion. One of the reformation religious abilities is to have any building purchased with faith grant 2 tourism.

    Normally, tourism only comes with a great work by a great writer, painter or musician, which takes quite a long time, and likely won't be seen at all for the first few eras. This allows you a trickle of tourism long before anybody else has any, as well as giving you a way to exploit it for greatest possible effect: Civilizations you trade with get 25% more tourism, civilizations who share your religion get 50%.

    Because culture is something of a snowball effect that takes a long time to build up, if you beeline for this premature tourism and are blessed with nearby rubes, you can dominate them with your blue jeans and rock music way back in the medieval era.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirKicksalot View Post
    The cultural victory conditions and the non-aggressive late gameplay were sort of rubbish. I'm looking forward to the Euroland unlock...

    Gamespot's only criticism is that it doesn't come with the content from the previous expansion...

    I thought it was only the Civs that were missing. Faith and such would have to be added to make the game work.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
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    I wasn't too sure about whether or not buying this expansion, but Nalano's description has me sold. Go collect your paycheck, Sir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Because culture is something of a snowball effect that takes a long time to build up, if you beeline for this premature tourism and are blessed with nearby rubes, you can dominate them with your blue jeans and rock music way back in the medieval era.
    How is this not historically accurate?


    Quote Originally Posted by EOT View Post
    I thought it was only the Civs that were missing. Faith and such would have to be added to make the game work.
    Since you can disable the first expansion in the DLC menu I guess all the relevant game information is patched into every version of Civ 5, but it's not unlocked until said DLC is present and enabled.
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  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    How is this not historically accurate?
    Not saying it isn't; just that in game terms I haven't even really figured out ocean travel and am already halfway to my victory goals - and I'm playing on King.

    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Since you can disable the first expansion in the DLC menu I guess all the relevant game information is patched into every version of Civ 5, but it's not unlocked until said DLC is present and enabled.
    Religion is intricately involved with this new add-on, so yeah, all you're missing and all you can miss is the set of civilizations that are included with God & Kings.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  13. #13
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Apparently I can play this from today, so GMG tells me. Unless they mixed up their dates. Either way I'll find out when I get home and either be super happy or super disappointed.
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  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    This dude is the cutest little Khan ever
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  15. #15
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    wait wait wait. it isnt released for me yet, is it in the US yet?

    also I bought it on wednesday already, a copy for me and my steam lan account/my colleague's account.
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  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    wait wait wait. it isnt released for me yet, is it in the US yet?

    also I bought it on wednesday already, a copy for me and my steam lan account/my colleague's account.
    It came out in the US on Monday or Tuesday. I got an email from GMG saying it'll unlock today at 13:30 in EU zones.
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  17. #17
    Sorry to be a carper, but has the 'friendly AI will turn hostile at the blink of an eye because you're doing well even though you've shown no hostility whatsoever' issue been toned down at all?

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moth bones View Post
    Sorry to be a carper, but has the 'friendly AI will turn hostile at the blink of an eye because you're doing well even though you've shown no hostility whatsoever' issue been toned down at all?
    Several patches ago. They still, however, love to dogpile on the loser. But then, dividing Poland is one of Russia's favorite hobbies.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  19. #19
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I've discovered something potentially gamebreaking:

    Now that social policies are coming in a lot quicker, Piety becomes quite powerful in the right hands. Completing it gives you a great prophet for a religion, as well as an extra "reformation" religious ability.

    One of the base religious abilities you can get is either pagodas, cathedrals or mosques. They act as buildings you can purchase with faith in any city that has your religion. One of the reformation religious abilities is to have any building purchased with faith grant 2 tourism.

    Normally, tourism only comes with a great work by a great writer, painter or musician, which takes quite a long time, and likely won't be seen at all for the first few eras. This allows you a trickle of tourism long before anybody else has any, as well as giving you a way to exploit it for greatest possible effect: Civilizations you trade with get 25% more tourism, civilizations who share your religion get 50%.

    Because culture is something of a snowball effect that takes a long time to build up, if you beeline for this premature tourism and are blessed with nearby rubes, you can dominate them with your blue jeans and rock music way back in the medieval era.
    I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. What I did in my current game (Poland) is to take the standard belief of being able to buy pre-industrial units with faith and the reformation belief of being able to buy post-industrial units. By focusing on religion and culture, I've gotten a little bit of a head start on tourism and a huge boost to culture, and I have enough faith income that I don't feel any real need to spend turns on units when I can just conjure up some zealots.

    Has anyone else noticed that the AI seems less expansionist than before? I've particularly noticed it with Egypt (who, nevertheless, remain my eternal nemesis). They seem to be building fewer cities, but they're being more aggressive in terms of investing in non-military approaches, such as sending out missionaries (curse you, Isabella!) and establishing trade routes.

  20. #20
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Several patches ago. They still, however, love to dogpile on the loser. But then, dividing Poland is one of Russia's favorite hobbies.
    Really? because in a game Im currently playing with a friend of mine, he and I in a team the AI isnt, they just all declared war on us in a couple of turns space.
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    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

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