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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    I rarely read anything RPS publish. I was going off of what I've heard.
    Do you often cite sources you haven't yourself read?
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  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Do you often cite sources you haven't yourself read?
    It wasn't strictly a citation, more a question. Read again.
    Last edited by CyberP; 21-07-2013 at 03:31 PM.

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    Old men these days, haven't seen classic silent films from the 1920's. tut tut ;)
    Battleship Potemkin is a must watch for everyone that loves film.

  4. #44
    Give us a chance, Tikey. You will not be disappointed.

    This lack of attention is extremely baffling. I blame the Steam summer sale.
    But it's Deus Ex for the fans, offered for free! Surely better than anything Steam is offering?
    Last edited by CyberP; 21-07-2013 at 04:29 PM.

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    It wasn't strictly a citation, more a question. Read again.
    Much as I like watching you backpedal, if I may:

    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    It is not just my opinion that it is "the greatest PC game of all time", hence the quotation marks.
    Doesn't this very gaming press team frequently give it number 1 spots in their greatest lists?
    That's a citation. You were relying on the authority of the sources you cited to bolster your argument that it is objectively the Greatest Ever - forgetting for the moment that you went one further and said it was the best in all home entertainment - and when those sources were questioned, you dialed it back.

    Oh, we're reading. Whether you understand what you're writing, however...
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    Oh sure, variety is the spice of life. But to be frank, dumb products is all we get in recent times....so less sharknados, more Alien please.
    That's...a little disingenuous.

    Every year/generation has only a handful of films that define the highest quality of technical and entertainment combined. The majority of films will be far less good. Besides, who's to say that you're the person who makes these choice judgements? 1979 also boasted the release of Star Trek: The Motion Picture and Moonraker, so it's not exactly like 1979 was brimming with absolute quality.

    The idea that "all we have is crap now" is silly. Like anything entertainment based, we remember only the very best and the very worst. Everything in between falls by the way-side, having fulfilled its duty of taking up time and proving to, ultimately, be nothing remarkable. We also now live in a world with constant communication and the bombardment of messages to "Go see X" and "Must watch Y" so you're going to be more aware of everything to begin with.

    Also, we got more Alien. We got an action film that had nary the atmosphere of the original, but was certainly quite enjoyable. I can't comment on the following sequels, but common opinion on those probably speaks for itself.
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  7. #47
    That's a citation.


    To some degree. It was a question, really. Yes I was using it to strengthen my opinion, but well, that failed, OK.

    You were relying on the authority of the sources you cited to bolster your argument that it is objectively the Greatest Ever - forgetting for the moment that you went one further and said it was the best in all home entertainment -
    I never forgot anything. I stated my opinion that it is the greatest of all home entertainment, just because I (not strictly) cited RPS to give my opinion more weight doesn't mean I forgot my original claim. Their opinion doesn't override mine.

    and when those sources were questioned, you dialed it back.


    It was a question. I haven't dialed anything back. The majority of the PC gaming press often hail Deus Ex as the greatest if I am not mistaken. I know PC gamer have for sure, so lets use that one source as the only credible citation for now, yes?
    If not, that doesn't change anything, my opinion will never change regarding Deus Ex regardless of what anybody else thinks, at least not until something better comes along.
    Last edited by CyberP; 21-07-2013 at 05:10 PM.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post

    The majority of films will be far less good. Besides, who's to say that you're the person who makes these choice judgements? 1979 also boasted the release of Star Trek: The Motion Picture and Moonraker, so it's not exactly like 1979 was brimming with absolute quality.

    The idea that "all we have is crap now" is silly. Like anything entertainment based, we remember only the very best and the very worst. Everything in between falls by the way-side, having fulfilled its duty of taking up time and proving to, ultimately, be nothing remarkable. We also now live in a world with constant communication and the bombardment of messages to "Go see X" and "Must watch Y" so you're going to be more aware of everything to begin with.

    Also, we got more Alien. We got an action film that had nary the atmosphere of the original, but was certainly quite enjoyable. I can't comment on the following sequels, but common opinion on those probably speaks for itself.
    I agree with the majority of what you typed, but know this: "all we have is crap now" was an exaggeration. However I do believe that the ratio of quality to crap was significantly different before these recent years, but it's all subjective.
    What is not strictly subjective however is products that hold substantial educational value vs those that do not.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    There is a suggestion that without the crap films you wouldn't get great films, I don't know if that is true now but in the past every famous actor started in a crappy horror movie, every great director started with a trashy exploitation movie. Lloyd Kaufman one of the founders of trashy movie studio writes books that are inspiring and enlightening and probably making a lot of first time directors like me actually make films.

    Battleship Potemkin is a must watch for everyone that loves film
    So is Metropolis, its surprising cause you can actually see every major blockbuster in that film with story structure and major focus on the ending with disaster.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    However I do believe that the ratio of quality to crap was significantly different before these recent years, but it's all subjective.
    I think that's selective bias.

    What is not strictly subjective however is products that hold substantial educational value vs those that do not.
    I don't see what that has to do with this discussion. Everyone utilises entertainment for different reasons and get out of them different responses. I don't think people are watching Sharknado to learn about the effects on civilisation on what would happen if sharks got swept up in a tornado that touched ground, nor do I watch a David Attenborough series to disengage my brain and not absorb anything. (Although, the cinematography in them are usually lovely.)
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  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    There is a suggestion that without the crap films you wouldn't get great films
    This is probably true in regards to an artists learning curve, my problem here is that the trash shouldn't overshadow the quality.
    Who am I to say what is trash and what is not? I am me, and my opinion is not final, but again, great educational value (factual) should give a product bonus points.

    Dumb entertainment products commonly sell greater than smart ones, a claim I doubt you can refute.

    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    I don't see what that has to do with this discussion.
    Bonus points. Education is important. Entertainment mediums can and do have great influence over the young.

    Oh, and before you call me a hypocrite for creating a gameplay mod, it does add educational value to Deus Ex ;)
    Also, Deus Ex is already the height of education & entertainment merged, in my opinion, so there is not a lot I could do there, and by people playing the mod they will likely recieve education from the vanilla game anyway.
    Ok, Deus Ex could be a lot more educational, but it provides enough, imo, especially when compared to other games.
    Last edited by CyberP; 21-07-2013 at 05:48 PM.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus thegooseking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    I think that's selective bias.
    Indeed. Let's not forget that Sturgeon's Law was stated during the "golden age" of cinema.

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Yes that's because peopley remember the classics that came out of any given era and generally don't think that when those classics came out there was probably a lot of dross in the cinema as well.

    @Cyber P

    In the short term dumb entertertainment does seem to out sell smart entertainment but I don't think that is the case long term I mean just look at the imdb 250 that is a public vote and yes you do see the new blockbuster in other occasionally but generally on there is the smart and great classics and not the dumb stuff.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegooseking View Post
    I've been having a theory recently, about nostalgia for old games. My theory (although I'm hesitant to speak for other people) is that it's not any specific quality of those games that people miss; it's liking games without really knowing why.
    Personally I have realized that my nostalgia for certain games is not only not for any specific quality, but it's really not even related to the games I'm nostalgic about. Those are just what I happened to be playing when my mind was awesome. My mind isn't so awesome anymore. I don't believe in all the cool shit I used to believe. The games remind me of my youth, but the nostalgia is for a time when I believed in magic and all needs where met without effort. I played Super Mario Brothers during that time, so I'm nostalgic about Super Mario Brothers. I feel much less "nostalgic" about something like Deus Ex that came out when I was already "mature" or whatever this curse of adulthood is called.

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    great educational value (factual) should give a product bonus points.
    Obviously that's your opinion, but you've yet to state why this should gain bonus points over something that doesn't? As a form of entertainment, where is the objective benefit for educational elements in something that didn't set out on doing so as a primary task?

    Dumb entertainment products commonly sell greater than smart ones, a claim I doubt you can refute.
    Highest grossing film of 2012 was The Avengers. Is it a dumb entertainment product? Because it's pretty bloody dumb if you ask me. Now you obviously said commonly, but you then had The Dark Knight Rises and Skyfall. Are they all 'dumb'?

    Education is important. Entertainment mediums can and do have great influence over the young.
    That's a whole other sweeping generalisation that significantly factors that most entertainment have children as a considered audience. Many do, but certainly not all. God help a child if they watch Breaking Bad. I can barely watch it myself.

    Oh, and before you call me a hypocrite for creating a gameplay mod
    What does your mod have anything to do with Sharknado?!?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I mean just look at the imdb 250 that is a public vote
    There is some bias there as I'm fairly certain you have to make an account? I'm willing to bet that the people who make an account with IMDB will likely be more interested in television/film and so might scrutinise the technical elements of production more. That's not to say it's generally wrong, but something to consider. I also think there's an argument to be made regarding more intelligent films lingering with you because the thought required for them will give you more to take away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparkasaurusmex View Post
    Those are just what I happened to be playing when my mind was awesome. My mind isn't so awesome anymore.
    That is a positively lovely turn of phrase that I'm going to have to steal. Thank you.

    Christ, if someone told me I was going to get into a discussion regarding the educational elements of Sharknado, a film about a fucking tornado that sweeps up (apparently) killer Sharks and the dainty survivors of said incident, I'd have laughed straight in their face.
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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    Obviously that's your opinion, but you've yet to state why this should gain bonus points over something that doesn't? As a form of entertainment, where is the objective benefit for educational elements in something that didn't set out on doing so as a primary task?
    The objective benefit is education. Every day of a humans' life yields a lesson of some sort, ideally.
    If the worldwide population was smarter then the world would likely be a better place.

    Maybe it is wrong to believe that an entertainment product should recieve bonus points for holding educational value, but for now I maintain that belief. It may be a belief (opinion, whatever) but why would you want to sway it?

    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    What does your mod have anything to do with Sharknado?!?!
    Nothing whatsoever, I hijacked the thread.
    You can have it back now, this thread is an ape tsunami anyway :P
    Last edited by CyberP; 22-07-2013 at 03:32 AM.

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    You didn't exactly address everything I said...

    As for "if everyone was smarter, the world would be a better place", well, I'll let Mel Brooks explain why that isn't necessarily the case.

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  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    If the worldwide population was smarter then the world would likely be a better place.
    Three things.

    1) The world population will be as smart as it was before. Intelligence and education are two distinct quanta.
    2) The existence of edutainment does not preclude non-educational entertainment.
    3) For all your calls for a brighter world, your solutions are some of the most facile I've heard in a while.
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  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    1) The world population will be as smart as it was before.
    That's a claim you cannot backup.

    The existence of edutainment does not preclude non-educational entertainment.
    And I wouldn't ever want that to happen either. Back to the trash out-selling quality problem. Back to justice for worthy products drowned out by ape tsunamis.

    3) For all your calls for a brighter world, your solutions are some of the most facile I've heard in a while.
    There was only one solution offered given the context, that being the entertainment industries, the primary topic of our discussion. I never put forth any other potential solutions. That's a likely long discussion for another time, maybe, but this thread is just going wherever at the moment so why not.
    There are most definitely better ways to educate the world than through entertainment mediums, but it is not a suggestion that should be waved off. As I said, they hold great influence, especially with the young.
    Last edited by CyberP; 22-07-2013 at 06:47 AM.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberP View Post
    That's a claim you cannot backup.
    I'm sorry, do you not understand the difference between education and intelligence?
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