Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 71
  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,393
    Sorry but did you even read my post?

    Someone with a knife comes into MY home. Into it uninvited. And has a knife. And is looking to rob or possibly kill me. The law here states I can deal with him and use physical force if needed, I just can't kill him and I can't torture him.

    There are obviously less lethal ways, I'm giving the example of the most extreme way you'd probably get away with.

    If I ever find myself in that position though I'll make sure of telling the guy about to kill me "You're not even meant to be here"
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Leicester, UK
    Posts
    1,759
    There's a non-lethal way to defuse any situation. But not that eliminates risk. If someone's threatening me with a knife, I'm going to make sure that they're absolutely not able to do that. That will involve taking their life, nothing less.
    Itsbastiat, Dawngate
    Bastiat, Planetside 2, Miller NC
    Therin Katta, FFXIV, Cerberus

  3. #43
    Network Hub deadly.by.design's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    U.S. East
    Posts
    480
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Someone with a knife comes into MY home. Into it uninvited. And has a knife. And is looking to rob or possibly kill me. The law here states I can deal with him and use physical force if needed, I just can't kill him and I can't torture him.
    Putting myself in the shoes of someone whose home is being invaded, I'd think there would be a lot of fear, reaction and confusion. I would likely be wanting to protect myself and my loved ones, and what if the burglar falls down the stairs to his death after I punch him? Or slips while fighting me and face-dives into a hard surface, never to regain consciousness? Are exceptions made where I wouldn't be charged with manslaughter? While I see that the intent is to prevent unnecessary death, which is reasonable in itself, it seems ridiculous to me that I would go to jail for something like this. Maybe it's more reasonable than that, and I'm unaware? I'd like that.

    It's a bit like the homeowner being at fault when a burglar injures themselves on their property.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,393
    It'd be on a case by case basis to be quiet honest.

    Slipping on a rug or falling down the stairs and dying as a result, are things that would have to be investigated more. If they slipt on your rug and there's no evidence you did that to them, then you're unlikely to be charged with manslaughter if they die as a result of hitting their head.

    Taking a gun out and being John Wayne though, is different. There's very few people who'd be effective at using a gun as a non-lethal deterrent or defence. I know in such a situation, I wouldn't bet on being able to use a pistol to shoot the knife out of someones hand, no matter how easy Hollywood makes it look.

    And yeah, burglar's hurting themselves while on someone else's property and the owner being at fault is retarded, but that's another story.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  5. #45
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Taking a gun out and being John Wayne though, is different. There's very few people who'd be effective at using a gun as a non-lethal deterrent or defence. I know in such a situation, I wouldn't bet on being able to use a pistol to shoot the knife out of someones hand, no matter how easy Hollywood makes it look.
    That's why the first shell in your shotgun is a beanbag round, and the next one isn't.
    The Medallion of the Imperial Psychopath, a Napoleon: Total War AAR
    For the Emperor!, a Total War: Shogun 2: Fall of the Samurai AAR

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,393
    If only Zimmerman had his handy dandy shotgun
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  7. #47
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    247
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBWm5aBLMY

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    10,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtBWm5aBLMY
    Libertarian radio pundit pulls out the "Black on Black" crime bullshit. Why don't we talk about white on white crime? The statistics are the same.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  9. #49

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    10,000
    Tell me, do you commonly watch right-wing talk shows hoping they can drag somebody else out to toe the party line? Clearly it's their "showcase of conservative Black men" week.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  11. #51
    Network Hub Mihkel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    247
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Tell me, do you commonly watch right-wing talk shows hoping they can drag somebody else out to toe the party line? Clearly it's their "showcase of conservative Black men" week.
    I don't. I just find this whole Zimmerman/Martin stuff entertaining.

  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    10,000
    Quote Originally Posted by Mihkel View Post
    I don't.
    And yet you keep linking trash.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Sorry but did you even read my post?

    Someone with a knife comes into MY home. Into it uninvited. And has a knife. And is looking to rob or possibly kill me. The law here states I can deal with him and use physical force if needed, I just can't kill him and I can't torture him.
    So you can only wave your hands menacingly and hope he runs away? Or can you get a weapon (improvised or otherwise) to defend yourself? Because what if he is a hemophiliac? What if you slip when you are doing your "non-lethal stab" to get him off of you and you accidentally make it "lethal"

    Also: The world is not a Hollywood Blockbuster. There is no such thing as "just a flesh wound". Any wound can kill or cause long lasting damage. Which is kind of the problem

    Going back to the, admittedly convoluted, scenario I gave. Yeah, you can run past him and hope that you won't get hurt. But what if you DO get hurt? Now, because some asshole wanted to rough you up/murder you/rape you/was just trying to change your flat tire, you are going to limp for the rest of your life or you are an amputee or you can never dance in a ballet troupe again. Call me heartless, but if the choice is between me being crippled for life or the asshole who was going to cripple me bleeding out while I call the cops, I am quite okay with lethal force, intentional or otherwise.


    Everyone (myself included) blames Zimmerman for not listening to the cops and backing off. But that is irrelevant. Zimmerman clearly was getting the ever-loving shit beaten out of him, and he feared for his life. And he acted on that fear. Because I don't for a picosecond believe a single one of you would say "Well, this guy is gonna murder me. But I am just gonna lie back and take it because I called him a mean name or I shoved him". So I don't think a single person here can make a rational argument for Zimmerman to not have acted in self-defense (And if you think you CAN make one, give it a shot, but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the scenario I just outlined...). Maybe you disagree with the use of lethal force, but the use of force PERIOD is definitely something he was entitled to do (assuming the court weren't bamboozled and that Zimmerman really was getting the shit beaten out of him by Martin).

    That brings us to the bigger question: What level of force was Zimmerman allowed to use? And THAT is where the discussions in this thread matter. I specifically cite mister fun magnet up there. "I (...) can use physical force if needed, I just can't kill him"
    It is actually surprisingly easy to kill someone in the heat of the moment. The human body is durable, but not THAT durable. Shove someone off of you and they crack their head on a table. Or what if you aren't an expert in the ways of the fist, and you grab a child's plastic baseball bat to defend yourself (or... you know... a real weapon) and accidentally clock them in the nose at just the right angle to shove cartilage into the brain? Or a million other things that can go wrong. Should only people who are highly trained in how to hurt people "just enough" be allowed to defend themselves? Or are we okay with someone grabbing a can of pepper spray and potentially causing a physical reaction that results in the mugger asphyxiating?

    Everyone can dissect the situation they know almost nothing about LONG after the fact and everyone can pretend "I would never use lethal force, no matter what someone did". But that kind of goes along with the saying "there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole". Maybe you really ARE that ethical of a person and you value human life to the degree that you would rather yours be taken than to dare hurt someone else, but if so, you are in the minority.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,694
    I find it interesting that many people consider that self defense does not begin once a stranger starts stalking you with a gun at night. Was trayvon supposed to 'stand his ground' once a completely unknown, gun-wielding agent had been given right to the first shot?

  15. #55
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    I find it interesting that many people consider that self defense does not begin once a stranger starts stalking you with a gun at night. Was trayvon supposed to 'stand his ground' once a completely unknown, gun-wielding agent had been given right to the first shot?
    Correct me if I am wrong, but no evidence has surfaced that Zimmerman showed the gun until he was ready to use it. Common sense supports this as Martin clearly was willing to physically assault him. It is possible that Zimmerman could have pulled the gun, Martin overpowered him and Zimmerman shot, but no evidence supports this.

    So, to summarize: No, you do not have the legal right to beat the shit out of anyone holding a weapon unless they show an intent to use it. Otherwise, my carrying a pocket knife in my front right pocket (a nice swiss) would give people the right to murder me in cold blood, and that doesn't seem quite right to me.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,393
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    So you can only wave your hands menacingly and hope he runs away? Or can you get a weapon (improvised or otherwise) to defend yourself? Because what if he is a hemophiliac? What if you slip when you are doing your "non-lethal stab" to get him off of you and you accidentally make it "lethal"
    The first post I believe I mentioned using a Hurl (or a Hurley) which for those who aren't familiar with the sport, is one of these



    The rounded looking part at the bottom (the bas) is large enough to balance something a little bigger than a baseball on top of with ease. They're pretty handy for a) the sport they're used in and b) knocking someone out. If you were being put in danger and used one to get out of it, depending on the amount of force you use, you'd be alright. If you use it to swing at their arms or legs, then run away, good job. If you use it to Hotline Miami their skull open, bad job.

    Could you kill someone with it? Of course you could, but you'd kill a person with your own hands if you tried hard enough/didn't stop punching them in the head. There's levels of lethality and a gun would rank fairly high up.

    Going back to the, admittedly convoluted, scenario I gave. Yeah, you can run past him and hope that you won't get hurt. But what if you DO get hurt? Now, because some asshole wanted to rough you up/murder you/rape you/was just trying to change your flat tire, you are going to limp for the rest of your life or you are an amputee or you can never dance in a ballet troupe again. Call me heartless, but if the choice is between me being crippled for life or the asshole who was going to cripple me bleeding out while I call the cops, I am quite okay with lethal force, intentional or otherwise.
    Everyone (myself included) blames Zimmerman for not listening to the cops and backing off. But that is irrelevant. Zimmerman clearly was getting the ever-loving shit beaten out of him, and he feared for his life. And he acted on that fear. Because I don't for a picosecond believe a single one of you would say "Well, this guy is gonna murder me. But I am just gonna lie back and take it because I called him a mean name or I shoved him". So I don't think a single person here can make a rational argument for Zimmerman to not have acted in self-defense (And if you think you CAN make one, give it a shot, but I have a sneaking suspicion it will be the scenario I just outlined...). Maybe you disagree with the use of lethal force, but the use of force PERIOD is definitely something he was entitled to do (assuming the court weren't bamboozled and that Zimmerman really was getting the shit beaten out of him by Martin).
    I've been put into a position before where I was assaulted by what I would guess between 3-5 guys. I didn't go looking for them or looking for trouble, they just did it for fun and they didn't even try take anything from me. I can attest from my experience that I did fear that there was a possibility they would kill me and for the few moments they had me on the ground I was pretty much too paralyzed with fear to do anything. The closest thing I'd have had to a weapon would've been a bottle of whiskey in a bag I was clutching onto but all I was thinking of was getting the hell up and away. That's all Zimmerman had to do, that and no be John Wayne of the Neighbourhood Watch and ignore the dispatcher.

    He should still be sentenced for manslaughter, because that's what he did.

    Even after the event, though I admit I would've temporarily enjoyed physically harming the guys who did it, I wouldn't kill them.

    That brings us to the bigger question: What level of force was Zimmerman allowed to use? And THAT is where the discussions in this thread matter. I specifically cite mister fun magnet up there. "I (...) can use physical force if needed, I just can't kill him"
    It is actually surprisingly easy to kill someone in the heat of the moment. The human body is durable, but not THAT durable. Shove someone off of you and they crack their head on a table. Or what if you aren't an expert in the ways of the fist, and you grab a child's plastic baseball bat to defend yourself (or... you know... a real weapon) and accidentally clock them in the nose at just the right angle to shove cartilage into the brain? Or a million other things that can go wrong. Should only people who are highly trained in how to hurt people "just enough" be allowed to defend themselves? Or are we okay with someone grabbing a can of pepper spray and potentially causing a physical reaction that results in the mugger asphyxiating?
    In case my point wasn't clear, you can use non-lethal force to defend yourself. If you can't tell the difference between lethal and non-lethal then look it up. And don't come back with "rubber bullets are non-lethal and they kill people too" because at that point, you're just arguing for the sake of it or you're deciding not to see the obvious. You've less chance of dying to over the counter pepper spray than you are to a gunshot wound. Pepper spray might choke you if you have a bad reaction to it. Gun shots might hit vital organs, blood vessels, cause the wounded to go into shock, maybe they fall over and hit their head and then a truck that happens to be passing by runs over their head like a melon, because lets straw man.

    Everyone can dissect the situation they know almost nothing about LONG after the fact and everyone can pretend "I would never use lethal force, no matter what someone did". But that kind of goes along with the saying "there is no such thing as an atheist in a foxhole". Maybe you really ARE that ethical of a person and you value human life to the degree that you would rather yours be taken than to dare hurt someone else, but if so, you are in the minority.
    Zimmerman was getting his ass beat, that's it. Trayvon had no dangerous weapons, he was fighting him one on one and getting the better of him. That's it. All Zimmerman had to do, was get up and run away. But he didn't even try. Because he had a gun. And the gun gave him power in his mind that everything would be alright if he shot this kid, the fight would be over and he'd be a-ok. And because of stupid laws, there's now a kid dead and this idiot walks free.
    Last edited by Jesus_Phish; 20-07-2013 at 02:44 AM.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  17. #57
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,333
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    The first post I believe I mentioned using a Hurl (or a Hurley) which for those who aren't familiar with the sport, is one of these



    The rounded looking part at the bottom (the bas) is large enough to balance something a little bigger than a baseball on top of with ease. They're pretty handy for a) the sport they're used in and b) knocking someone out. If you were being put in danger and used one to get out of it, depending on the amount of force you use, you'd be alright. If you use it to swing at their arms or legs, then run away, good job. If you use it to Hotline Miami their skull open, bad job.
    So guns bad, but giant fucking clubs are okay? Got it. What is your stance on knives, oh definer of what you are and aren't allowed to use to defend yourself?

    Could you kill someone with it? Of course you could, but you'd kill a person with your own hands if you tried hard enough/didn't stop punching them in the head. There's levels of lethality and a gun would rank fairly high up.
    And so would that, if you used it as a weapon rather than a tool.



    I've been put into a position before where I was assaulted by what I would guess between 3-5 guys. I didn't go looking for them or looking for trouble, they just did it for fun and they didn't even try take anything from me. I can attest from my experience that I did fear that there was a possibility they would kill me and for the few moments they had me on the ground I was pretty much too paralyzed with fear to do anything. The closest thing I'd have had to a weapon would've been a bottle of whiskey in a bag I was clutching onto but all I was thinking of was getting the hell up and away. That's all Zimmerman had to do, that and no be John Wayne of the Neighbourhood Watch and ignore the dispatcher.
    I am very sad you had to go through that, and you have my condolences.

    That being said: Zimmerman wasn't paralyzed with fear and the closest thing he had to a weapon was a gun. He had already called for help repeatedly and it likely, to him, looked like no help was coming.
    Also, it is kind of hard to get up when someone is sitting on your chest and beating the shit out of you.

    He should still be sentenced for manslaughter, because that's what he did.
    No, he didn't. By US law, he either did this in self-defense (which is what the courts believe) or he is guilty of Imperfect Self-Defense. When someone is sitting on your chest and beating the shit out of you to that degree, it DEFINITELY counts as self defense. It is just a question of if his life was truly in danger and if he used the appropriate amount of force. If it was not or he did not (which is not what the courts believe), then he is guilty of Imperfect Self-Defense (assuming Florida has that).


    In case my point wasn't clear, you can use non-lethal force to defend yourself. If you can't tell the difference between lethal and non-lethal then look it up. And don't come back with "rubber bullets are non-lethal and they kill people too" because at that point, you're just arguing for the sake of it or you're deciding not to see the obvious. You've less chance of dying to over the counter pepper spray than you are to a gunshot wound. Pepper spray might choke you if you have a bad reaction to it. Gun shots might hit vital organs, blood vessels, cause the wounded to go into shock, maybe they fall over and hit their head and then a truck that happens to be passing by runs over their head like a melon, because lets straw man.
    No, I still stand by the exact same things I said.

    If you push someone off of you to run away and they crack their skull open, they are dead
    If you beat someone with a giant fucking club and they die of bleeding in the brain, they are dead.
    If you shoot someone and they die, they are dead.

    And here is the thing. If my life is in danger, I am not going to pull a Pulp Fiction and pause and stare at my giant wall of weapons to see what is most appropriate. I am going to use what is at hand. For me, that will probably be my swiss army knife (and I'll have to get a new one since I won't want to open beer bottles with something that was inside of somebody). And you can be damned fucking sure that if you were carrying around a giant shilleleigh for "self defense" you would probably be in a similar mess (minus the racism thing, unless the news decided to use that angle).

    Should he have been carrying that gun? I honestly have no idea. It depends on if he had a concealed carry permit and what Florida law is. But since he isn't in prison right now, let's assume it was something he COULD carry. All he did was defend himself with what he had available.

    Your argument makes sense if this is a premeditated situation (so self-defense in the second degree or whatever it counts as if you go to help someone who is about to be murdered). If someone is actively in danger of being murdered, they don't have the luxury to look around for something. You use what is at hand. If he had a knife, I would have expected Martin to have a knife embedded in his abdomen. If he had a giant fucking shillelagh, he would probably be in prison because he was walking around a neighborhood threatening people with a giant fucking club.

    Zimmerman was getting his ass beat, that's it. Trayvon had no dangerous weapons, he was fighting him one on one and getting the better of him. That's it. All Zimmerman had to do, was get up and run away. But he didn't even try. Because he had a gun. And the gun gave him power in his mind that everything would be alright if he shot this kid, the fight would be over and he'd be a-ok. And because of stupid laws, there's now a kid dead and this idiot walks free.
    Martin was looming over him and continually beating him brutally. You yourself admit that it is possible to kill someone with your bare hands "if you try hard enough". Zimmerman felt that Martin was trying pretty hard, and evidently the courts agree.

    But I get it, survival of the fittest, right? If you can't win a fistight, you don't deserve to live?


    Also, just to provide a bit of flavor, here is a blurb from wiki that is cited

    A witness to the confrontation just prior to the shooting stated that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and punching him, while Zimmerman was yelling for help. This witness, who identified himself as "John", stated that "the guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911".[122] He went on to say that when he got upstairs and looked down, "the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."

    That sounds like more than "just a fistfight". And considering Martin continued to beat the shit out of Zimmerman after being told to stop by a third party and that someone was calling the cops and CONTINUED to beat the shit out of Zimmerman even as the person who had offered help of any form had left...

    Also, the REALLY sad thing. If Zimmerman had been doing what people in this thread are accusing him of (running around waving a gun around like a jackass), Martin would be alive. Because, while the kid was CLEARLY a violent thug, he probably wouldn't have been stupid enough to attack a guy waving a handgun ta him. So... I guess shame on Zimmerman for being a fuck-up in some ways but not in others.
    Last edited by gundato; 20-07-2013 at 04:38 AM.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Dublin, Ireland
    Posts
    4,393
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    So guns bad, but giant fucking clubs are okay? Got it. What is your stance on knives, oh definer of what you are and aren't allowed to use to defend yourself?
    Yes, for defense purposes it'd be allowed. Would you get arrested in the US for defending your home with a baseball bat from someone breaking in, or are you just allowed pull out old reliable and go gungho?

    You seem to be taking everything to the extreme. You're aware that you can do things like body shots right? Which are much less lethal than a gunshot to the body. Hell, you even say yourself if Zimmerman had of just shown the gun, Trayvon probably would've thought twice about it. Same deal if someone has a bat or a club.


    And so would that, if you used it as a weapon rather than a tool.
    So because it COULD be used, if you pushed it to be a means to kill, defending yourself with something that's a lot less lethal is the same as a gun? I'm honestly not sure if it's because we're from two different parts of the world, but I see a really big difference between the two ideas. I already agreed a Hurl could be used to kill someone, but so could a glass bottle.

    I am very sad you had to go through that, and you have my condolences.

    That being said: Zimmerman wasn't paralyzed with fear and the closest thing he had to a weapon was a gun. He had already called for help repeatedly and it likely, to him, looked like no help was coming.
    Also, it is kind of hard to get up when someone is sitting on your chest and beating the shit out of you.
    He had a pretty big weight advantage and if Zimmerman was able to reach for a gun, which I'm not sure where he kept it, but if he was able to reach for that, at least one of his arms where free. Maybe the issue is that he had the gun in the first place. Maybe if he didn't have it, he wouldn't have a) followed Trayvon and b) immediately gone to use it.


    No, he didn't. By US law, he either did this in self-defense (which is what the courts believe) or he is guilty of Imperfect Self-Defense. When someone is sitting on your chest and beating the shit out of you to that degree, it DEFINITELY counts as self defense. It is just a question of if his life was truly in danger and if he used the appropriate amount of force. If it was not or he did not (which is not what the courts believe), then he is guilty of Imperfect Self-Defense (assuming Florida has that).
    Over here then Imperfect Self-Defense would fall under manslaughter charges. What are the charges for Imperfect Self-Defense?

    No, I still stand by the exact same things I said.

    If you push someone off of you to run away and they crack their skull open, they are dead
    If you beat someone with a giant fucking club and they die of bleeding in the brain, they are dead.
    If you shoot someone and they die, they are dead.
    All of those would put you up for manslaughter charges in this country. If you're found guilty or not, would obviously be up to the trial.

    And here is the thing. If my life is in danger, I am not going to pull a Pulp Fiction and pause and stare at my giant wall of weapons to see what is most appropriate. I am going to use what is at hand. For me, that will probably be my swiss army knife (and I'll have to get a new one since I won't want to open beer bottles with something that was inside of somebody). And you can be damned fucking sure that if you were carrying around a giant shilleleigh for "self defense" you would probably be in a similar mess (minus the racism thing, unless the news decided to use that angle).

    Should he have been carrying that gun? I honestly have no idea. It depends on if he had a concealed carry permit and what Florida law is. But since he isn't in prison right now, let's assume it was something he COULD carry. All he did was defend himself with what he had available.
    Maybe you all shouldn't have guns. It's almost like it causes a massive load of problems all across your country. And carrying a hurl around with you is acceptable if you were going to play or train. People carry them to play fetch with their dog. If you strapped one to your back and tried get into a club or a cinema or most stores you'd be stopped and told to leave.

    Your argument makes sense if this is a premeditated situation (so self-defense in the second degree or whatever it counts as if you go to help someone who is about to be murdered). If someone is actively in danger of being murdered, they don't have the luxury to look around for something. You use what is at hand. If he had a knife, I would have expected Martin to have a knife embedded in his abdomen. If he had a giant fucking shillelagh, he would probably be in prison because he was walking around a neighborhood threatening people with a giant fucking club.
    So guns good, sports equipment bad. Quick, get this info to the NRA and shut down Champs. What if he did have a knife? Is Zimmerman by law, allowed carry a knife around? I looked it up, you apparently can conceal a knife. You can also conceal the following

    electronic weapons or devices
    tear gas guns
    billes (billy bat)

    So why not carry stun guns around? We've already established Zimmerman had no problem reaching for a gun, I've seen stun guns that are about the size of a lady shaver, so he could have easily gotten that, zapped Trayvon, got up and ran to a safe distance and did what he should have in the first place. And again, maybe if he just had a stun gun, he wouldn't have felt so brave about going after Trayvon.

    Martin was looming over him and continually beating him brutally. You yourself admit that it is possible to kill someone with your bare hands "if you try hard enough". Zimmerman felt that Martin was trying pretty hard, and evidently the courts agree.

    But I get it, survival of the fittest, right? If you can't win a fistight, you don't deserve to live?
    No. But if you can't win a fistfight, it doesn't mean the other person has to die. You can both walk away from it with some bruises and shattered egos.

    Also, just to provide a bit of flavor, here is a blurb from wiki that is cited

    That sounds like more than "just a fistfight". And considering Martin continued to beat the shit out of Zimmerman after being told to stop by a third party and that someone was calling the cops and CONTINUED to beat the shit out of Zimmerman even as the person who had offered help of any form had left...

    Also, the REALLY sad thing. If Zimmerman had been doing what people in this thread are accusing him of (running around waving a gun around like a jackass), Martin would be alive. Because, while the kid was CLEARLY a violent thug, he probably wouldn't have been stupid enough to attack a guy waving a handgun ta him. So... I guess shame on Zimmerman for being a fuck-up in some ways but not in others.
    I dunno if I'd call him a violent thug. One teacher describes him as a straight student while his school describes three times he was suspended. Sounds like he could have just been getting in with the wrong crowd. But you're right, if Zimmerman went waving the gun around, Trayvon probably wouldn't have gone for him. If he didn't have the gun, he probably wouldn't have followed. When I say he was John Wayne'ing around I mean that the gun gave him confidence, not that he was walking around spinning it around and practicing his quick draw.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

    Steam ID

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,914
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And yet you keep linking trash.
    Like yourself and that BigSmokeCorner stuff?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    NY f'n C
    Posts
    10,000
    Hi, I am about to be banned for two weeks.
    Last edited by Nalano; 20-07-2013 at 05:24 PM.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
    Director of the Friends of Nalano PAC
    Attorney at Lawl
    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •