Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 109
  1. #21
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    To be fair, if someone got caught doing the physical distribution equivalent, they would get more than a slap on the wrist :p
    No they wouldn't, the first-sale doctrine applies in the case of physical distribution. In the US, this was recently affirmed by the SC in Kirtsaeng v. John Wiley & Sons, Inc.

    Leaving that aside, the punishment for violating the TOS (assuming that the portion of the TOS being enforced is actually legal in his jurisdiction) is completely absurd. If they don't want people "smuggling", they could just stop that at the source. They can also just ban people from trading (which they already do for other offenses).

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    5,286
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Yohanson View Post
    Where we can see that using steam trading window is "smuggling games across regions"? Is there any information about it in steam user agreement? Trading games with friends is "smuggling games across regions"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Yohanson View Post

    I have some friends from US, Canada, Europe. So they asked me for buying games for them sometimes, because games in Russia are cheaper
    It is when the purpose is to get something for cheaper.

    As for the user agreement: I skimmed through it. There are a few things about obeying import/export laws and the like, but I think this mostly boils down to the "use common sense" clause as this really is the exact same thing as running an import/export business out of your house: In small doses it is either legal or ignored, but in bulk it is something you need to be licensed for so as to ensure you are paying the correct tariffs and the like.
    Steam: Gundato
    PSN: Gundato
    If you want me on either service, I suggest PMing me here first to let me know who you are.

  3. #23
    Network Hub
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    125
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    In small doses it is either legal or ignored, but in bulk it is something you need to be licensed for so as to ensure you are paying the correct tariffs and the like.
    Steam is not in charge of enforcing the laws of localities. Whether or not he needs to be "licensed" to run an import/export business is none of Steam's business.

    Whether or not the TOS violation is enforced is completely and utterly arbitrary given the amount of traders there are that "smuggle" on a much larger scale than this guy. They're not even difficult to find thanks to places like TF2Outpost and the countless trading groups in Steam community.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    8,776
    Valve needs to remove the trading feature if they are going to punish for its use. I have no idea what country half of my steam friends list comes from because it's a list of people who I play games with not a nationalist list of my countrymen.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    1,413
    That and some people either will go crazy gifting or go crazy trading. Dropping the trade ability seems better than banning all games... :/

    But sadly, either Steam are not communicating well to customers, especially when bans are imposed, or we have no way to tell (we cannot check if the poster is telling the truth). It's a rock and a hard place.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,408
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Yohanson View Post
    Where we can see that using steam trading window is "smuggling games across regions"? Is there any information about it in steam user agreement? Trading games with friends is "smuggling games across regions"?
    He makes a fair point. They could as easily exclude cross-region trading as they exclude users in a certain region from accessing another region's steam store.

    Certain items, like DOTA 2 beta keys couldn't be activated in some regions, for example.

    Saying "Don't do it. But here's our official mechanism that will let you do it" is confusing. It obfuscates the rules even if those rules are fairly sensible.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  7. #27
    Obscure Node
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    24
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    but it's their system, their rules.
    Here in "socialist" Europe it's not "their rules". We already have rules in place - called laws, and unlike the US TOS violating consumer protection laws are not legally binding. The European Court of Justice made a recent ruling regarding digital content that indicates that certain steam "rules" are standing on very thin legal ground.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    1,023
    FFabian is right, if steam or EA or most publishers/games would be taken to court over their EULA then they really wouldnt stand much of a chance, I think its the last thing they want to see happening though, its a facade they use to 'legalize' their actions.
    PS2/NS2/Mumble: SirWigglyBottom
    Steam: The Almighty Snark

    Bread?

  9. #29
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    1,608
    Quote Originally Posted by Frostbite View Post
    Ah, digital distribution. Isn't account-tied gaming wonderful? I look forward to more people losing access to their games in the near future.
    I wonder if there is a System Shock reference in here somewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    You are an enemy of gaming.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus c-Row's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Anus Mundi, Germany
    Posts
    1,170
    Hooray for golbalization, unless somebody else profits from it.
    - If the sound of Samuel Barber's "Adagio For Strings" makes you think of Kharak burning instead of the Vietnamese jungle, most of your youth happened during the 90s. -

  11. #31
    Lesser Hivemind Node Harlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Weymouth, UK
    Posts
    763
    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I think this mostly boils down to the "use common sense" clause
    Isn't "use common sense" too wooly and vague for a legal agreement? Are you doing some of that figurative speaking so popular with the young folk nowadays?

    (I've always suspected that "common sense" is somewhat of a myth, myself..)

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Stockton-on-Tees, UK
    Posts
    2,303
    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    He makes a fair point. They could as easily exclude cross-region trading as they exclude users in a certain region from accessing another region's steam store.
    Even better than excluding cross-region trading, they could limit the number of cross-region trades you can do in a particular period. Cross-region trades can be convenient and innocent so we'd still want to be able to do it. Presumably they don't really care about people trading a few games with their friends. If you try to do too many it could pop up with a message about why they're blocking your trading ability for a while.

    Steam's regional stuff is really quite nonsensical at times. At one point I was trying to buy a game in Belgium with a UK debit card. It wouldn't let me. Yes, Valve, I'm clearly trying to circumvent your regional pricing by purchasing the game in a more expensive region.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kelron's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,945
    Surely it would be a trivial matter for Steam to block trades between regions if it was against their rules, given that they can and do restrict purchases based on region already.

    What this seems like to me, assuming this guy is telling the truth, is that he has an account that looks like he is reselling games for profit, and Steam support aren't willing to listen to any explanations otherwise because they have a dumb zero tolerance policy and know there's not a lot he can do about it.

  14. #34
    Activated Node
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    93
    There are a number of reasons i would never use Steam, and i suppose this is one of them (i like to fully own and control my games i have paid for). Having said that it really does seem like you may have been (unknowingly even) exploiting their region pricing thing AND you drew attention to yourself.

    Use GoG and avoid all this in future?

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Arcadia
    Posts
    4,128
    Quote Originally Posted by ZakG View Post
    Use GoG and avoid all this in future?
    Although in theory that's the sensible thing to do, Steam-exclusive titles (as the very least reason) will most likely make people use the platform regardless. Also, as has been stated above, Valve and other resellers forcing account-wide bans on their customers walk on very thin ice, at least in the EU. So the question is "What can people do about being locked out of their account for unjustified reasons?".

  16. #36
    Obscure Node Jurnau's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Posts
    27
    Quote Originally Posted by c-Row View Post
    Hooray for golbalization, unless somebody else profits from it.
    +1 Yep, free market for the corporations not the users.
    Respectable people... What bastards! - Emile Zola

  17. #37
    Lesser Hivemind Node Juan Carlo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    662
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Even better than excluding cross-region trading, they could limit the number of cross-region trades you can do in a particular period.
    I suspect they don't do that because then people would push it just up to the limit. I could also see people creating dumby accounts for the express purpose of trading.

    I doubt Valve would ever put such guidelines in the TOS just because keeping things vague gives them more wiggle room when it comes to banning whoever they think needs to be banned. Whereas, if they layed out concrete guidelines they themselves would have to follow those guidelines.

    It's in Valve's interest to keep alot of this stuff vague.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3,427
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Normally the ban only applies to the Community Features - you will still be able to play your own games and buy new games for yourself, but you will not be able to gift anything/sell on the Market/buy as a Gift for others. A total ban seems less common so you really upset them somehow.
    He can still play his games, just not buy new ones, as per the new Steam policy. The excess money left in his account strikes me as awkward though - it seems like the 'fair' thing to do would be to refund that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelron View Post
    Surely it would be a trivial matter for Steam to block trades between regions if it was against their rules, given that they can and do restrict purchases based on region already.
    Probably because they're okay with people sending the occasional gift to friends in other regions. The crucial piece of information the original poster hasn't included is how many cross-country trades he did in the last twelve months. "Sometimes" could mean a lot of things - if it's like five, there's a problem here and we can probably get Steam to sort it out. If it's fifty then he's screwed.

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Terra Australis Incognita
    Posts
    4,351
    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Saying "Don't do it. But here's our official mechanism that will let you do it" is confusing. It obfuscates the rules even if those rules are fairly sensible.
    Valve only seem to be targeting the people who appear to be profiting from it, or doing it en-mass. They don't appear to object to people just doing it occasionally for their friends across the seas. Yes, it's still against the ToS, and it throws things like the RPS Smuggling Ring into questionable territory, and yes it's inconsistent, but it's arguably beneficial for the end user.

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Even better than excluding cross-region trading, they could limit the number of cross-region trades you can do in a particular period.
    This would be the best fix as opposed to "Hmm, looks dodgy, hang them!"

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Steam's regional stuff is really quite nonsensical at times. At one point I was trying to buy a game in Belgium with a UK debit card. It wouldn't let me. Yes, Valve, I'm clearly trying to circumvent your regional pricing by purchasing the game in a more expensive region.
    That might have been tightened as a result of the L4D2 event - in Australia they allowed refunds of the pre-order once the federal government refused classification. A bug in the Steam store allowed you to order the US version from the US store with an AU credit card by changing part of the URL. Valve quite clearly knew about this (it was all over the Steam forums) but left it alone for quite a while. After L4D2 though those bugs were patched out.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    4,550
    I'd like to think that Valve are sensible about this and only ban people who are really taking the piss. That, to me, would mean someone 'gifting' several games every day - not a few a month. Of course they can easily regulate this by simply limited the number of copies of a game you can buy - that takes little effort on their behalf.

    I'd like to think that someone would get a warning to stop before they're banned - it's easier to send one before you ban someone and if this ever reached a court it would be a useful defence to have.

    I'd like to think that a ban would affect only their ability to trade/use the community and not their own account - because blocking people's access to their games (and money) is going to get you into court sooner or later.

    I have a feeling none of those things really apply tho - and only because they're confident they won't end-up in court or on the wrong end of a backlash consumer terms.

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •