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Thread: S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Misery mod is out
04-08-2013, 10:57 PM #21
05-08-2013, 12:06 AM #22
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
I took the plunge and downloaded the mod. It's good, but for every good point to the mod there is something frustrating. The game's economy is quite terribly broken, with sky-high ammo costs and bullet sponge enemies making costs absurd. This wouldn't be so bad if a) enemies carried a sensible amount of ammo for me to loot or b) looted items sold for a reasonable price, but as things stand it's ridiculous. Oh and repair costs are ridiculous too, I mean sure, it should cost a ton to fully repair a state of the art assault rifle, but repairing your coat? Come on. Oh and speaking of repairs, the items to do it are far too valuable, from what I can tell there is no gain to be had from using your own repair supplies to fix your gear, you may as well sell them and use an NPC to repair, infact it's probably cheaper to use the NPC, since his repair costs don't scale linearly (repairing from 90% to 100% won't cost much at all, maybe a couple of thousand, the item to do the same will probably sell for 5k).
Feels like the 2.0 release was rushed out, because many of these faults wouldn't even have needed playtesting to see, just stopping and thinking for ten minutes would have sufficed. Still, it's got potential.
05-08-2013, 07:49 AM #23
The economy will be changed quite a bit in the upcoming patch, so I'd advise you to wait a little since installing this patch will require you to start a new game. And in my opinion the economy's not so bad in the sense that it's actually possible to earn a lot of money in a short time, and this outweighs the high cost of repairs and ammo. I mean, it certainly differs from what you've got in vanilla and it takes some time to get used to it, but when you do get used to it it's extremely rewarding. Granted, there were some bugs and inconsistencies - and these we're trying hard to take care of - but the mod can be fun if you play it differently than other shooters.
Last edited by Trikster; 05-08-2013 at 08:50 AM.
05-08-2013, 08:15 PM #24But where did he come from, this fleck of spite in an abandoned paradise?
06-08-2013, 06:28 AM #25
- Join Date
- Aug 2013
FYI this is the link to the post on the Moddb Misery forums by the dev regarding complaints on balance:
For those who may have that site inaccessible at work or whatever:
[Spoiler]OK - I'll start with admiting that I am the guy personally responsible for balance and what you're experiencing - I am the gameplay lead for this project responsible for in-game implementation of all features (many of which I have constructed from ground up) and rest of the team has trusted me the responsibility on 'how the game is gonna play out in the end'. Please know that everything which is happening is done entirely on purpose and has been thought out and tested multiple times.Now - I have not stated above to defend the current approach and state that it has to remain like that - on the contrary - I love balancing gameplay and there is no more fun thing for me than discussing it and setting stuff in-game accordingly (unfortunately around 50% of time I was spending on fixing bugs - and I actaully consider it an achievement how 'stable' the mod is now as it was way worse and few dozen nights was spend to iron out stuff which would prevent release altogheter).
I have red very carefully every work you've written above + many other places were ppl have put feedback regarding the mod. I am not saddened or dissappointed in any way as everything you've stated has been more or less forseen to happen (I'll explain below) - on the other hand I was not suspecting that it will back-fire as much as it apparently did.
Below - I will put my 'reply' in points / statements regarding how things were approached conceptualy and why. Main reason for this is not to defend the current situation - this is a project made to people afterall and it has to be adjusted towards general demand. Still I would like everyone to take below statements into account and provide feedback in some relation to them, in sort of way:
"OK I understand what your wanted to do but it failed / requires improvement because..."
OK, so here we go:
1. First and foremost please undestand that what is crucial for the gameplay is that I wanted to take the control over the experience out of the player's hands and make it so that its the world which enforces reaction rather than the player who can all the time choose what he wants to do.
Inspiration here was mainly taken from two games:
* Fallout 1 / 2 - go to wrong part of wasteland at the beggining of the game and you wont survive
* Gothic 1 / 2 - same as above - certain parts of the map / enemies were impossible to take out until the player progressed
2. Since Stalker is not an RPG game and the is obviously no leveling - the only way to make above happen is by restricting certain possibilities equipment-wise. In other words - it was my principle to restrict certain actions until you equip yourself adequately to be able to do certain stuff without frustration. I have assumed here that if certain thing makes you save / reload 30 times - you will refrain from doing this and rather think about doing something else for a while and returning to the 'impossible' activity once you can do it without frustration. So frustration is a tool I wanted to use to achieve and enforce above-mentioned sand-box restrictions and game progression.
Inspiration here is for ex.
* X series / EVE on-line - you begin in very tiny ship and its not a really good idea to try to destroy a mamoth ship with it right? On the contrary - thru the first 20+ hours of gameplay you should totally avoid combat and only do trading / scavenging.
3. So very large portion of gameplay desing has went into creating impossible situations (generating endless frustration) and then >>>> placing tools in-game and charging those tools properly which can make those impossible situations very much possible, non-frustrating or even easy.
This is an attempt to move the difficulty accent from the difficulty of the certain situation (which still should be challanging but deffinately not impossible and frustrating) into difficulty of preparing to certain situation (progressing enough withing allowed boundaries to aquire equipment allowing to takle cerain odd).
Above is also connected with breaking of regular game-proggresion - I did my best so that first clearing Zaton fully >>> moving to Jupiter is no longer the proper way.
Proper way - is to first clear all 'easy encounters' on both maps >>>> moving to clear 'hard encouters' on both maps when they are no longer impossible.
4. Below is the list of general areas to which sand-box gameplay in Misery has been divided to with 'tools' which make turn them from being impossible / frustrating ones into manageble / easy ones:
I. Hunting light mutants >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires shotgun / pistol with anti-tissue ammo
II. Clearing light anomaly fields (radiation, electrical) >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires gasmask (actually electrical ones dont require anything at all)
III. Clearing medium anomaly fields (acid) >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires SSP Headgear Set (screen helmet) or articats supporting the gasmask which is inadequate on its own
IV. Hunting lower-ranked humans >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires at least light combat armor (Sunrise Suit and derivative) and a weapon of choice with a supply of armor-piercing rounds (also supply of pain-reducing drugs is usefull, especially for recon)
V. Clearing heavy anomaly fields (fire) >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires SSP suit or SEVA suit (with SEVA being also the combat armor allowing to earch anomalys and fighting during a single expedition)
VI. Hunting heavy / psi mutants >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires explosive weapon / mines / supply of anti-tissue ammo. For psi mutant also headgear and anti-psi drugs are essential
VII. Hunting high-ranked NPCs / doing heavy-combat quests / going to Pripyat >>>> impossible / frustrating until player aquires heavy combat armor and hi-tier customized rifle with AP ammo
It has been made absolutely sure and it has been tested - than once appropriate 'tool' for certain stage of proggresion is attained the activity can be conducted in non-frustrating, fluent way. However trying to go against it - and tackle certain stage without the tool is to be almost impossible.
This concept has succeded - you can rely on this mechanic - just try it in-game or test it with this notion in mind.
WHERE IT FAILED?
Basically the main reason is I think is that that people are not put off from doing something by the sheer frustration and rather tend to try bash the head against the wall and go against the wind and in consequence bash us for unbalanced mod.
I think that were the mod has succeded: putting working equipment-based restrictions on sand-box game, lies the main problem with audience reactions. People basically feel over-restricted and not look for alternative ways.
Please know that I am not criticizing here - as hoobystic game desinger wannabe this is extremely important remark and observation for me.
Putting above statement in context of combat balance, it has been imho very well summarized in following statement from the comments:
Someone wrote:-npc's dont die from a headshot even when not wearing helmets (i had to shoot 3 times with a deagle to kill them smaller calibers needed even more rounds)
but when npc's shoot you and your not wearing decent armor you instantly die
Well - I must say that this is exacly the point.
Note that also in this post none of you guys has stated in which armor you were in when trying to attack and kill NPCs, while this is exacly the feedback I would like to hear the most.
In short: NPCs are supposed to be equal to you in terms of resistance but only if suit 'worn' by them and you is of the same or similar class. When you'll be wearing Beril and feel that Beril-armored NPCs survive more than you: ok, this is were the change should be made. However fact that you're in Leather Jacket and get insta-raped by Exoskeleton NPC is something which has to be considered natural.
There is another layer here thou: ammo type. It has been set (for the first time in any Stalker mod ever) that ammo variety also affects NPCs - they can either use 'normal' ammo or 'ap' ammo and since differences in regard to armors are uge between them - higher-ranked, AP-shooting NPC at the beggining of the game will have tremendous advantage versus you.
Lets assume that gameplay structured like above actually works. Is such gameplay fun? Are restrictions imposed by a sand-box world something to enjoy? I have automatically assumed that this is the way to go with Stalker gameplay and the only way I imagined introducing challenge to it.
Was I wrong?
Now - I would sincerely like to ask to take above into account and provide feedback with that in mind. I'd like to make this gameplay perfect but I am of course assuming that on some points execution might have gone wrong.
But to judge that - I would for ex. like you to actually aquire a 'decent armor', good weapon and AP ammo and letting me know how combat feels then. Without that and without having 'frustration-killing tools' for any other stages of gameplay progression model it is not possible to judge wheter it actully works and perfect it.
All that said and aside from conceptual stuff described above, there are still 'minor' gameplay issues that I'd like to adress:
- headshots - its simple - for me insta-kill headshots made the game to easy. So I've made this 'gamey' tweak as it was more fun and challanging for me personally. However - 99% of ppl dislike it - ok, its matter of changing a single line. Expect that done in monday's patch
- dropped weapon condition - again simple - allowing dropped guns in good condition makes having trader with weapons pointless, we can as well delete his stock. Have you ever actually purchased a gun in vanilla game? I dont think so and I wanted to change that. Only by saving on and purchasing a gun one starts to relate to it and wants to keep it in top condition >>>> which fuels manual repair system.
I never considered it unrealitic that rookies drop very worn guns - watching thru lets plays I have noticed that also players walk around with damaged guns at the beggining of the game no being able to afford the repair.
Note that veterans / masters (which will get more numerous later on) drop weapons in much better quality.
That said - ok, no problem I will rise the average condition of dropped guns to around 40-60%. Will that work ok? Making them mild thou is not the way to go. I hope you agree?
- mechanic repair costs - this is connected with above. Everything below 50% of condition is cheaper to buy new. For me it appeared logical, in terms of gameplay >>>> allowing cheap repairs of hundreds of looted guns again disables the need to purchase a single weapon ever >>>> we're in vanilla world again. Note however that repairing the weapon manuall is much cheaper but it will only work for weapons not lower than 45% of condition.
Still - we've already agreed in team that manual repair will work from 25%. OK?
- ammounts of ammo - again - same as with conditiona of dropped weapons. Ammo should be mainly purchased as otherwise whats the point of traders and stocks? Still ok: I'll rise the ammounts by 100%. OK?
OK - thats all from me. Sorry for wall of text I hope that you've found above insight at least interesting and can now see logic in some of the decisions.
I am confident that we agree that Misery v2 holds potential to be very unique experience among sand-box games (in comparison to FarCry 3 for ex.) and togheter we can make it perfect in every regard.
Looking forward to reading as much additional feedback as possible, however very much please locate it in above context as otherwise above 1000 words are pretty pointless
Thank you all for interest in our humble work.
Edited by: trojanuch
Last edited by Kalil; 06-08-2013 at 06:30 AM.
06-08-2013, 11:13 AM #26
I just wanna know 1 thing. Is it possible to repair a certain weapon with another weapon (fix a busted AK with another AK)?Building, fixing and using PCs since 1999. Only PCs. Always PCs.
06-08-2013, 01:01 PM #27
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Ok, I have to say it, that balance guy is a moron who doesn't seem to understand the first thing about game design. Most of what he said there is essentially "I designed this element badly, but that was the point".
06-08-2013, 04:04 PM #28
Stamina-boosting drugs are there for you to take advantage of. You've also got artifacts, just remember to wear artifact containers.
Yeah, how much you carry determines your stamina regernation, so you'd best leave all unnecessary stuff in a stash and take only essentials with you.
Playing as an assualter a bit, I had no difficulties adjusting to the stamina drain, even when I had no artifacts or drugs.
No, that's not possible right now - you're a soldier, not a handyman - but sure, it would be a nice feature to have. We're just not sure it won't break the balance.
This is a mod, and as such it corresponds to what we wanted to have in-game. We - as veteral S.T.A.L.K.E.R. players - felt it was right - not too easy, not too hard, and if that's not what the community likes, fine, we're eager to change it and make it more like what the community thinks it should be. That is, without changing the core of gameplay, because it is gameplay that makes Misery Misery.
And that's a given: Misery is not for everyone, it's only for hardcore players who enjoy having their asses kicked. So yeah, that was the point, but the design wasn't bad; it's just that the design we thought was fine didn't fit everyone's taste. There are people who enjoy what've done, and we're very happy for them. Which does not mean we didn't commit any mistakes - we sure did - but that's exactly the purpose of upcoming patch.
06-08-2013, 04:10 PM #29
Every soldier should be able to dis/assemble his weapon, so replacing broken parts shouldn't be that much of a stretch. As for balance, I'm not a fan of it in general (some armors/weapons are just better/worse than others).Building, fixing and using PCs since 1999. Only PCs. Always PCs.
07-08-2013, 02:08 PM #30
Yeah, you're most probably right, but the question remains: won't it be too easy to repair things then? We'll try to take a look, and if we like how it works we'll release a patch sometime in the future.
07-08-2013, 07:29 PM #31
I'm enjoying it immensely! However I have an annoying bug where whenever I do the dredge station quest for Beard it crashes the game. Just when the dude who mugs you hands it over to Beard it will CTD. Every single time! I'm just going to have to skip the into quest unfortunately.
07-08-2013, 09:02 PM #32
Thanks for your kind words!
As to the bug, I don't know what's the cause, but maybe the upcoming patch will remedy your problem. And even if that doesn't help, there are plenty of ways to finish the quest, so just try to avoid this single one. I'm aware this isn't much of an advice, but x-ray engine is quite unreliable and there's only so much we can do.
08-08-2013, 12:28 PM #33
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
The bugs currently annoying me the most are crash bugs on weapons. I like playing as a sniper, so the M14 DMR is a dream weapon for me, unfortunately if you mod it in a certain way (I believe it was the third tree down, first upgrade) it crashes the game whenever you switch to it. Then there's a rather nice assault rifle, the Galil I believe, which crashes the game if you so much as go to the customising screen for it.
ShowMeTheMonkey why not just do the quest the other way? That is to say shoot the guy in the face instead of giving him the artifact. Missions seem to be the only thing in the mod that gives a reasonable amount of money, so passing up the opportunity to finish one is not a good idea.
08-08-2013, 04:26 PM #34
That is one option yes. (Though annoyingly I role play as a kind of paragon on The Zone so sometimes I can't bring myself to do that).
I've heard that the new patch will not be save game compatible. I'll just wait until the next patch. Is there an ETA on this patch? I'm worried all of the patches released will mean I have to start all over again.
17-09-2013, 05:28 PM #35
Sorry for not being around, I was busy doing Polish translation (which is out by the way; check it out here: http://www.miserymod.fora.pl/tlumacz...ry-2-0,54.html) and polishing (sic!) English texts for patch no. 3.
My second "sorry" is for misinformation. It actually is possible to repair your suit by using other suits. However, you won't find too many suits in the game, so you shouldn't consider them as the best way to maintain your equipment. And it certainly doesn't break the balance.
As far as I know, most weapon-related bugs were removed; not all, for example upgrading some of the weapons to change caliber causes CTD and some people are complaing about zooming difficulties. So there's a lot of work in front of us, without a doubt. I hope that patch 3 will resolve most of your problems, and I can tell you that we've dealt with most gamebraking problem of all, that is save corruption.
If you have any questions, feel free to ask, and I'll do my best to answer them. :)
18-09-2013, 12:47 PM #36
- Join Date
- Oct 2011
Biggest turn off for me is the insane amount of items this mod has. It's like you guys just crammed it full of items just so you can say it has lots of items. It's pointless and cumbersome. I'm not expecting you to "fix" this, just stating my opinion
19-09-2013, 06:44 AM #37
Well, almost every item has a purpose (there are, however, some "useless" items that have been added solely for immersion purposes): some can be used to boost your psy-resistance, some increase effectiveness of glues and sewing kits, some are repair items, etc. We have lots of ammo types, and there are vast differences between them; we have a great number of weapons and weapon profiles, etc. What I mean is: it is cumbersome and it was meant as such (you can't expect even a smallest dose of comfort when in the Zone), but it is not pointless. And the question is whether gameplay invoking a sense of discomfort is up your alley. But if it's just the amount of items that overwhelms you, you can quite easily mod the mod by changing a few files to make them not show at trader's or in stashes.