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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Yeah you're right. If you take away the narrative, colour palette, setting, and managemen- wait what?

    Get the fuck out.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    I spit in the general direction of people who get excited about it.
    Grow up...

  3. #23
    Network Hub AlonePlusEasyTarget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    A simplistic, cheap crap that only gets recognition because of either the art style, or the subject matter.
    You'd be right at home with Gone Home then.
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  4. #24
    Lesser Hivemind Node Oshada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Yeah you're right. If you take away the narrative, colour palette, setting, and managemen- wait what?

    Get the fuck out.
    A-ha. Without the faces of lowly peasants begging to enter glorious Arstotzka Papers, Please would be a piece of shit.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oshada View Post
    A-ha. Without the faces of lowly peasants begging to enter glorious Arstotzka Papers, Please would be a piece of shit.
    I agree, a game about border control would be terrible without anyone who wanted to cross the border.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    Yeah you're right. If you take away the narrative, colour palette, setting, and managemen- wait what?

    Get the fuck out.
    Imagine this game is called Passport, Please and is set in a contemporary airport in some first world country. You are being paid a weekly wage, nobody tries to bribe or convince you to let them through, and while genuine menaces like terrorists with fake papers exist, they're so rare most people won't even see them in their games at all.

    Basically it's the same game, just with the whole moral choice aspect of it completely removed.

    Would you play it for more than 20 minutes?

  7. #27
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    That's a stupid thing to say.
    What if we took Deus Ex and removed guns and it was set in the desert ? It makes no sense.

    If you don't like the gameplay and the setting, it's fine, I can understand that. But saying "If it was a worse game it would be worse" is pointless and I can't understand why you would try to use such an argument.

  8. #28
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    If you removed guns from Deus Ex you would change the gameplay of Deus Ex.

    Removing moral choices doesn't change the gameplay. That's the point I'm trying to make. Papers, Please only "works" because of something that is not related to its mechanics in any way. And that's bullshit. That's not different than playing a game just because it has good graphics.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    If you removed guns from Deus Ex you would change the gameplay of Deus Ex.

    Removing moral choices doesn't change the gameplay. That's the point I'm trying to make. Papers, Please only "works" because of something that is not related to its mechanics in any way. And that's bullshit. That's not different than playing a game just because it has good graphics.
    Call of Duty 2014 is set entirely in a target range with one of those moving walkway things. The mechanics remain the same.

    Think that'd sell as well?

    By the same logic, all books are identical. It's just reading words and turning pages.

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Imagine this game is called Passport, Please and is set in a contemporary airport in some first world country. You are being paid a weekly wage, nobody tries to bribe or convince you to let them through, and while genuine menaces like terrorists with fake papers exist, they're so rare most people won't even see them in their games at all.

    Basically it's the same game, just with the whole moral choice aspect of it completely removed.

    Would you play it for more than 20 minutes?
    Probably, but I'd be inventing my own stories in my head, and they might not be as interesting. Now say I'm a single man who doesn't have to worry about his family starving, nor have any reason to rush my job and hold my breath till I'm convinced the pink slip of death isn't going to appear. I'd be gripped by that even less.

    Anyone can lop off parts that make the identity of a game and call it shite. Paper's Please has more going for it than you claim.
    Last edited by Drake Sigar; 20-08-2013 at 08:25 PM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Removing moral choices doesn't change the gameplay.
    No, but reducing the number of false applications to nearly zero does. It's like saying imagine if GTA4 was just following the rules of the road, and it was possible to get into armed conflict but so rare most players would never encounter it.

    If you haven't played it then it's hard to explain, but there's something compelling on a basic level about doing the checks. It's not ground-breaking gameplay but it's enough to last the length of each short day before it gets juggled again.

    What makes it interesting and worth buying are the extra plot-hooks, and the way it comments on following the rules and all that stuff. If that stuff wasn't in then you're right, I probably wouldn't buy it. But I don't think that would leave it an awful game. An average game, for sure, but it'd still be passable.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Imagine this game is called Passport, Please and is set in a contemporary airport in some first world country. You are being paid a weekly wage, nobody tries to bribe or convince you to let them through, and while genuine menaces like terrorists with fake papers exist, they're so rare most people won't even see them in their games at all.

    Basically it's the same game, just with the whole moral choice aspect of it completely removed.

    Would you play it for more than 20 minutes?
    Your describing a different game you simpleton. Part of the interest comes from the fact that you are a border operator who faces moral dilemmas. It is part of the immersion. That is like saying "Deus Ex would be shit if I just played a s a normal person, just going to work, buying the weekly groceries and going to bed" Of course it would be crap. But your describing something completely different.

    Quite frankly I get enjoyment out of the paper work for some reason. So that aspect alone is enjoyable to a lot of people, maybe not you but since when are you the center of the universe?

    Edit: hmm... everyone seemed to use Deus Ex in their arguments.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Papers, Please is a perfect example of the kind of games that I hate the most. A simplistic, cheap crap that only gets recognition because of either the art style, or the subject matter.

    It's like making a Tetris clone but replacing the blocks with bodies of dead Jews. And then you're internet superstar because oh my, controversy and that's so thought provoking! Yeah, except it's still just a Tetris clone and Tetris sucks ass.

    Making a crap game with "art" or "message" is literally the easiest thing to do in gaming after making just a plain crap game, and I spit in the general direction of people who get excited about it.
    Ahem... Tetris doesn't "suck ass". That is all...

    GLORY TO ARSTOTZKA!

  14. #34
    Activated Node Matzerath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Imagine this game is called Passport, Please and is set in a contemporary airport in some first world country. You are being paid a weekly wage, nobody tries to bribe or convince you to let them through, and while genuine menaces like terrorists with fake papers exist, they're so rare most people won't even see them in their games at all.

    Basically it's the same game, just with the whole moral choice aspect of it completely removed.

    Would you play it for more than 20 minutes?
    Actually, I think you just figured out how to get this game through the IOS approval process.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    My only real problem with the game is that it really only works on your very first playthrough. Only when facing the issues for the first time do they become morally problematic for you, and only when still learning the game will you have problems maintaining your family.

    In the second time you should be much better at handling the papers, so you can build yourself quite a cushion in the easier first days, and then obviously you start to gamify your choices ("the first time I did this, so let's see what happens if I do that"). Which is unavoidable, of course, unless you randomize the events more.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Papers, Please is a perfect example of the kind of games that I hate the most. A simplistic, cheap crap that only gets recognition because of either the art style, or the subject matter.

    It's like making a Tetris clone but replacing the blocks with bodies of dead Jews. And then you're internet superstar because oh my, controversy and that's so thought provoking! Yeah, except it's still just a Tetris clone and Tetris sucks ass.

    Making a crap game with "art" or "message" is literally the easiest thing to do in gaming after making just a plain crap game, and I spit in the general direction of people who get excited about it.

    I really have no idea why you would think this is a cheap cash-in on anything. The mechanics and the setting of the game are original, and serve to make the game fun. It's not a game with a moral message shoved in your face, or a pretentious artsy facade. You could argue that you think inspecting papers is boring in the game, or that you don't like the minimalist presentation, and that's fine, to each their own. But to say the game is a cheap, bad game that simply is recognized for it's art style and subject matter is just really stupid when it so obviously isn't.

    Your tetris example just shows how wrong you are. Why would you compare this game to a tetris clone? There's hundreds of tetris clones and variants, but can you name me another border inspector game? Is there an original that's set in a world without moral dilemmas? It's an original game, with, to my knowledge, no other game like it. It isn't a clone or copy of anything. Where the hell do you get this idea?

    The dumb criticism, bad examples, harsh terms and insults hurled at people who like a game you don't like just make sound like you're stupid.

    Imagine this game is called Passport, Please and is set in a contemporary airport in some first world country. You are being paid a weekly wage, nobody tries to bribe or convince you to let them through, and while genuine menaces like terrorists with fake papers exist, they're so rare most people won't even see them in their games at all.

    Basically it's the same game, just with the whole moral choice aspect of it completely removed.
    So you remove a fundamental part of a game that makes a normally boring task fun and then say no-one would play it. No shit. What's your point? Are you still trying to say it's using it's setting and moral problems to trick us into liking it? Hasn't it occurred to you that no-one is trying to trick you? It's a fundamental part of the game, and there is nothing wrong with that. Moral choices in games are fun. Following your logic, any game that relies on story-telling, setting or trying to create emotional involvement is bad. And that's dumb.
    Last edited by Curry; 21-08-2013 at 05:02 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Gunman View Post
    Edit: hmm... everyone seemed to use Deus Ex in their arguments.
    That's because Deus Ex is Hitler.

    Quote Originally Posted by Curry
    Following your logic, any game that relies on story-telling, setting or trying to create emotional involvement is bad.
    No, any game that relies ONLY(or mainly) on story-telling, setting or trying to create emotional involvement is bad. Which is exactly what Papers, Please does.

  18. #38
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    Care to suggest a few other ways of creating emotional involvement?

  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    No, any game that relies ONLY(or mainly) on story-telling, setting or trying to create emotional involvement is bad. Which is exactly what Papers, Please does.
    The Walking Dead, winner of 80+ GotY awards.

  20. #40
    Obscure Node Melan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    No, any game that relies ONLY(or mainly) on story-telling, setting or trying to create emotional involvement is bad. Which is exactly what Papers, Please does.
    No it doesn't.

    It is a puzzle game whose central mechanic is pattern matching and a race against the clock in the short term, and managing a very scarce long-term resource (money) against full or partial loss conditions (eviction, dead family members) in the long term. It has an additional layer of moral conflict, but the core consists of a strong and increasingly more complicated puzzle element.

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