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  1. #101
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Soon to be depicted in a sober, unwavering documentary known as Saints Row 4.
    I bet the makers of Saint's Row 4 would suck a dick to save the universe.

  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I find it extremely disturbing that you went out of your way to bring an excuse, a very outlandish excuse, for rape. Then again, I probably understand a lot better why women in your scenario wouldn't want to reproduce. I know I wouldn't want to if that was the general mindset.
    Especially since there's always, I don't know, artificial insemination. And if women didn't want anything to do with pregnancy or child rearing we could develop artificial wombs as on the Cordelia's homeworld in the Vorkosigan saga. Or invest in making male-pregnancy save and common. There are any number of other options within the rules as presented, but for some reason forcing someone to have sex with you becauseit's their duty is the only one that counts. Disturbing indeed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I bet the makers of Saint's Row 4 would suck a dick to save the universe.
    See, I might. But it depends on the dick and the universe. How attracted I was to the individual, what the relationship was, what the context of universal destruction was, how tenuous the connection between saving and sucking was. How much I liked the universe, how much other people liked the universe.

    What you call closed-mindedness, I call imagination. I have trouble not imagining a more detailed, complicated situation.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 16-08-2013 at 11:07 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Gunman View Post
    How about The Witcher 2?

    However tasteful/not tasteful you think it is you have to agree it is on par with a lot of TV shows/movies.

    Fucking hell! I was supposed to edit this into the above post :(
    I'll be honest I'm a philistine when it comes to that game. I played it for about 15 minutes and turned it off when the controls didn't feel right.

    So all I'm left with is knowing that the female in that game did a playboy shoot. Didn't scream out maturity, but hey maybe the game does a better job.
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    I think what Kanye West is going to mean is something similar to what Steve Jobs means. I am undoubtedly, you know, Steve of Internet, downtown, fashion, culture. Period.
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  4. #104
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar skills View Post
    I'll be honest I'm a philistine when it comes to that game. I played it for about 15 minutes and turned it off when the controls didn't feel right.

    So all I'm left with is knowing that the female in that game did a playboy shoot. Didn't scream out maturity, but hey maybe the game does a better job.
    What's wrong with the controls? I haven't played it yet.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  5. #105
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    The dodge/roll thing can be a bit sluggish. I actually found it best on a pad.
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  6. #106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    What's wrong with the controls? I haven't played it yet.
    To me, when using a mouse it feels wrong somehow. Totally subjective, but its like playing a game you know has been designed for a console. At least until I tried it with a 360 pad and it felt even worse. It's not like I don't play a lot of third person action games either.

    I want to like it too, I'm always hearing good things about the damn thing so I wish I could make more effort to make it click to be honest.
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    I think what Kanye West is going to mean is something similar to what Steve Jobs means. I am undoubtedly, you know, Steve of Internet, downtown, fashion, culture. Period.
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  7. #107
    Activated Node InnerPartisan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar skills View Post
    Oh I'm a big fan of confrontational art, but I'd never go out of my way to defend people like Noe, Winding Refn or Trier. I feel like they'd be disappointed if I bothered, in fact.

    I haven't seen Only God Forgives, but all the reasons people give for hating it (every shot being just-so, excessive violence, style over substance, no characters) just make me look forward to it more. I will always indulge myself and pop the wank hat on, and so long as I have the self-awareness to realise what a dork I am I will never feel guilty for it either.
    Hehe. "Pop the wank hat on" is a phrase that I'll definitely have to add to my repertoire :D

    I agree, of course. Even if it's bad and blatantly offensive, "Confrontational Art" at the very least makes you think. There's always the danger, however, of it becoming trite (yeah, I'm looking at you, Mark Millar).
    So, uhm, moderation? I don't know.
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  8. #108
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    I don't think Hotline Miami has any real artistic merit in being a social commentary or making a point. It's a disturbing fever dream with ultra violence and Nintendo-hard difficulty. In some places it seems to say "Oh look at what you've done, you're a horrible person" but the player never really has any agency in the game since the entire point is to kill absolutely everyone.

    I'm not even going to weigh in on the rape argument because nobody's going to come out of that one alive. One side will always say that games aren't mature enough to deal with it (and from what we know of HLM2 from Cara, the case described is treated in a fairly unsavory way) regardless of where games go, condemning us to avoiding particular topics until an indie art-house circlejerk comes in to save the day (and ironically it's an indie game kicking up a fuss). On the opposite side are people who obliviously go "So what's wrong with this when the rest of the game is about caving in the skulls of your fellow man?" who completely miss the point and think that one automatically justifies the other.

    All I will say is that the rape might fit in with the theme of the game. That doesn't make it okay nor does it invalidate Cara's impressions. It doesn't even justify the theme of the game. But I can see why they (however misguided) did include it. HLM is about extreme violence and apparently they thought this would be a progression of that. Not a justification, not saying it's "okay", just that I can see where they were going with it.

    One thing I'd like to know - if we didn't get this spoiler and people encountered it for themselves, what would the reaction be? It's easy to have empathy and hate it after reading Cara's article, particularly since she's popular on RPS (and IMO one of the best things to happen in a long time to RPS), but if you encountered it away from this 'controversy', would you still feel the same? Can you even answer that question? Would you be disgusted by its depiction of sexual violence?
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  9. #109
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    One thing I'd like to know - if we didn't get this spoiler and people encountered it for themselves, what would the reaction be? It's easy to have empathy and hate it after reading Cara's article, particularly since she's popular on RPS (and IMO one of the best things to happen in a long time to RPS), but if you encountered it away from this 'controversy', would you still feel the same? Can you even answer that question? Would you be disgusted by its depiction of sexual violence?
    Frankly, I found HM distasteful before this controversy, for precisely the point you made in your first paragraph, so this just sounds like shock for the sake of shock to me - thoughtless, hackneyed and overdone.
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  10. #110
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Frankly, I found HM distasteful before this controversy, for precisely the point you made in your first paragraph, so this just sounds like shock for the sake of shock to me - thoughtless, hackneyed and overdone.
    no hawtlin myamee wuz so mateur omfg nalno r u lik 6 dude 2deep4u.

    Side note: I died a little inside typing that.
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  11. #111
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    no hawtlin myamee wuz so mateur omfg nalno r u lik 6 dude 2deep4u.

    Side note: I died a little inside typing that.
    And here I thought you were already dead inside. That's how one becomes conservative, right?
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    As an aside, I hope the point of HM wasn't to make me feel bad for killing or else I must be a psychopath. Each level was so Battletoads-hard that every kill I actually managed to get delighted me.

    "fuck you, identical ganster number one.
    fuck you, identical gangster number two.
    have that, bald twat with the shotgun. How about you feel bad for those 90 times you killed me just now."

    On yet another tangent, I think that sort of thing was done a lot more cleverly in that great little game, Gunpoint. Don't want to spoil it for anyone who hasn't played it but it's only a subtle touch.

    You can take dudes down and punch them to knock them out. If you punch them more than once, the game lets you know you don't have to. If you do it something like 10 times and more, the game starts "er"-ing to indicate that it's worried about you.
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    I think what Kanye West is going to mean is something similar to what Steve Jobs means. I am undoubtedly, you know, Steve of Internet, downtown, fashion, culture. Period.
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  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    And here I thought you were already dead inside. That's how one becomes conservative, right?
    On the contrary, being dead inside implies feeling nothing. To be a fascist neocon like myself, you must burn with hatred for your fellow man.


    Quote Originally Posted by jaguar skills View Post
    As an aside, I hope the point of HM wasn't to make me feel bad for killing or else I must be a psychopath. Each level was so Battletoads-hard that every kill I actually managed to get delighted me.
    I wouldn't necessarily give them as much credit as others, but yeah, that was more or less the point. It pumps you up with its difficulty and the extreme violence, rewarding you for faster kills, more elabourate attacks, and violence for the sake of violence. The fever-dream interludes, hallucinations, and "end of level" sequences where you walk back through your trail of destruction were all supposed to highlight how you've become a nightmare incarnate.

    Of course you're right to argue that a lot of this is lost during the "woo I just beat this really hard level yay!" euphoria you get when you succeed, because it's ultimately a game with very game-y mechanics and no consequences. That puts it on a different level from something like Papers, Please which is still a game but links its mechanics with consequences in the context of its story. Which is different from Dear Esther which is not a game and doesn't even say anything interesting.

    (Can I subvert this thread into what is/isn't a game?)
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  14. #114
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    well hotline miami was always coined as violence porn. now its turning into sexual violence porn? we will have to see when it releases.
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  15. #115
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    I'm not in a position to judge this, because I haven't played the game.

    I do find Cara's sudden empathy for the female character a bit bizarre though, I've never empathised more with a fictional character just because he has a dick. It also sounds like the game doesn't actually feature rape, but implies that there was about to be a fictional (even from every character's perspective) rape in an already fictional game.

    EDIT: I also dislike the 'sexual violence is the worst violence' mentality. Given the choice between being raped or being viciously murdered like hundreds (if not thousands) are in a game of Hotline Miami, I'd be getting checked for STDs ASAP.
    Last edited by lordcooper; 17-08-2013 at 08:10 AM.

  16. #116
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    EDIT: I also dislike the 'sexual violence is the worst violence' mentality. Given the choice between being raped or being viciously murdered like hundreds (if not thousands) are in a game of Hotline Miami, I'd be getting checked for STDs ASAP.
    I already posted my ideas on this earlier in the thread, but essentially: one does not need to think sexual violence is worse than non-sexual violence to find it's inclusion in certain game contexts more problematic, disturbing, and misplaced.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  17. #117
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    Suicidal tendencies are quite common among rape victims (heck, in some cultures, suicide is even the only acceptable outcome). The victims' self worth is completely obliberated, often feeling that they 'let themselves get raped', which is why the brutality of sexual violence is stressed so often - it's a horrid crime, and it's the perpetrators fault for having committed it, and theirs alone. Another reason is that it is far more common then murder - whether or not you may think that murder is worse, the chance that you get murdered is pretty low. For quite a few population groups, however, the possibility of experiencing sexual assault is rather plausible.

    I have seen quite a few people draw a line between "rape victims" and "rape survivors" as well - the point being that the psychological impacts are enormous (especially since the crime is often comitted by people you trust), and require quite some effort to overcome. Worse, the psychological effects are such that they often lead to a victim being raped again (And again and again) because of the effects mentoined above.

    I mean... compare this to the murder statistics. Whether rape is worse or less worse then murder on an individual case is debatable, and, frankly, besides the point (Look on the bright side, you could have been murdered! Is not really a way to cheer up a rape victim (or a torture victim for that matter)). It's clear that it is a very severe problem.

    tl;dr: whether sexual and non-sexual violence are worse then eachother is beside the point. The point is that both are pretty damn awfull (And that sexual violence is actually a lot more common, creepily enough).
    Last edited by Grizzly; 17-08-2013 at 11:57 AM.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    tl;dr: whether sexual and non-sexual violence are worse then eachother is beside the point. The point is that both are pretty damn awfull (And that sexual violence is actually a lot more common, creepily enough).
    Isn't it the point though? We don't generally get multiple page debates with name calling on both sides about games daring to show that someone in a game was pretending to be about to murder someone else in a game. If sexual violence isn't worse than general violence then surely it shouldn't matter in the slightest if someone made a game where the primary activity is rape.

    As for the frequency of a crime dictating how bad it is, that's a bit silly. I doubt many folk would argue that theft is worse then murder, despite being over 2000 times more common (in the UK at least).

  19. #119
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    Yeah, so seeing the video made me sick to my stomach. Killing and graphically raping innocents is not my thing. I'm probably going to skip Hotline Miami 2.

  20. #120
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    graphically raping innocents
    That flat out didn't happen in the video.

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