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  1. #181
    Network Hub Memph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bankrotas View Post
    So... slept on it and had a thought.
    Is that scene in game is really a rape? Cause in context, that's a movie stage, those are actors, "rape" victim is an actor. She read the script of the movie and since she's in the scene, I could say, it was her choice to be there.
    This was my reaction. It wasn't crystal clear if it was a meant to be out-and-out snuff, but the director yelling "cut" (not to mention "you're supposed to be killing, make it look like it" and him being, ya know, a director) pretty much gave the idea that the entire scene in question was staged.


    edit: Now seen a vid that explains the trailer isn't of the game as such, but the making of a movie within the game, of events that were meant to have happened in the game's world. So yes, someone gets raped, although what's shown in the trailer is a reinactment of an event in the game, not the actual event in the game. Although I suppose either would look the exactly same, in the game, only with or without the director.

    Now arguments over whether that makes it more or less distasteful can continue, I guess.
    Last edited by Memph; 20-08-2013 at 03:31 AM.

  2. #182
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I'm noting that picking out player agency, of all things, as part of the crux of the issue seems like attempting to take a tangential issue and putting it at the top of the list.
    You are fixating on three mentions of a word in two sentences from an ~800-word preview yet you're telling me the previewer "took a tangential issue and put it at the top of the list"?

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    When you've already surrendered agency, I don't know why the point you choose to focus on is that the loss of agency continues when you're now confronted with a sequence you find abhorrent.
    She clearly didn't think she'd surrendered agency; that's your imposition.

    "I have a different conception of agency but I'll critique the preview as if my conception is the author's."

    That's why you "don't know why" Ellison used the word agency – because you don't even conceive of the possibility that another human being has a different perspective on a word.

    I myself think the phrasing was poor; it'd have been more straightforward to say e.g. "the mechanics were unexpectedly altered from kill target to rape target."

    That doesn't have anything to do with the salient core of the preview, though.

    Again, you're being wagged by the tail.
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  3. #183
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    You are fixating on three mentions of a word in two sentences from an ~800-word preview yet you're telling me the previewer "took a tangential issue and put it at the top of the list"?
    I'm not talking about Cara, I'm talking about the point in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    She clearly didn't think she'd surrendered agency; that's your imposition.
    Well actually she somewhat acknowledges that she did - she admitted that prior to the rape aspect she approached the "FINISH HER!" element with trepidation, even though she assumed it would be simple physical assault. By that point she's already acknowledged a loss of agency.

    Again, you're tossing out strawmen when I'm discussing the point as raised in this thread. Nothing I ever said tries to invalidate Cara's feelings despite what you might like to claim. I'm just noting that all this discussion of play agency is utter nonsense when you've lost it from the moment you start playing!
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    ...if we took the rest of the world into account, including places where women are sold off at age 9 or forced to marry their rapists, that the numbers would go down?
    Of course.

  5. #185
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I'm not talking about Cara, I'm talking about the point in this thread.
    Could you adumbrate "the point in this thread"?

    Who were you talking about when you said, "picking out player agency as part of the crux of the issue seems like attempting to take a tangential issue and putting it at the top of the list"? Who did the picking? Was it it Santa? You're either talking of Ellison or me, yes? If you're talking of me, my point stands above; it's a direct reference to the preview in the OP. Consider again:

    "I stroll up to finish the job. Instead, the control is taken from me by the game, and my character, the Pig Butcher, pins her down and drops his trousers."

    Emphasis mine. And in explication:

    "I have been forced to identify with the one person the game has given no agency. My agency has been removed not only from Pig Butcher, but agency was never given to the woman I now identify with – not even AI."

    The meaning seems exceptionally and atp painfully clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Well actually she somewhat acknowledges that she did - she admitted that prior to the rape aspect she approached the "FINISH HER!" element with trepidation, even though she assumed it would be simple physical assault. By that point she's already acknowledged a loss of agency.

    Again, you're tossing out strawmen when I'm discussing the point as raised in this thread. Nothing I ever said tries to invalidate Cara's feelings despite what you might like to claim. I'm just noting that all this discussion of play agency is utter nonsense when you've lost it from the moment you start playing!
    Instead of claiming misdirection sans substance why not lay out the point I'm supposedly burying in hay so as to expose my gross disingenuity once and for all? Give ol' Jam a spanking.

    Your "point" about agency is a triviality if it's supposedly some critique of HLM/2, and if it's about the linked preview I actually agree that it could've been worded better. Disliking the way "agency" was used doesn't translate into said use being "nonsense". I understood what was meant and I'm a hack halfwit of a moron, ffs.

    Try parsing it out. If she acknowledged a loss of agency mid-play as you say, what does that logically entail? Does it mean she must have conceived of having some agency prior to the loss? Why else would it be mentioned?

    "It occurs to me that I've lacked something this whole time, but nonetheless I feel as if I've just lost it!"

    ???

    The tail is wagging you so hard at this point it's incredible, but I'll stay by your side, friend.
    Last edited by Jambe; 20-08-2013 at 07:51 AM.
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  6. #186
    Lesser Hivemind Node Juan Carlo's Avatar
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    Descriptions of this rape scene reminds me of "Perfect Blue"--there's a scene that starts out seeming like a rape, but then someone yells cut and it turns out it's just actors and they proceed to make awkward small talk before the director yells action and they start again.

    It's kind of a famous scene (I remember Madonna played it on huge screens during one of her tours for some odd reason, along with clips from Urotsukadoji) so I wouldn't be surprised if the creators were directly referencing that film.
    Last edited by Juan Carlo; 20-08-2013 at 07:52 AM.

  7. #187
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juan Carlo View Post
    Descriptions of this rape scene reminds me of "Perfect Blue"--there's a scene that starts out seeming like a rape, but then someone yells cut and it turns out it's just actors and they proceed to make awkward small talk before the director yells action and they start again.

    It's kind of a famous scene (I remember Madonna played it on huge screens during one of her tours for some odd reason, along with clips from Urotsukadoji) so I wouldn't be surprised if the creators were directly referencing that film.
    I'm dubious, but perhaps. You might want to read this post on the tigsource forums from an individual who spoke about it with Dennis Wedin at E3:

    "The oft-talked about rape scene, which is inarguably the grossest scene in the demo and actually made me sick to my stomach, was explained as a reaction to complaints regarding the woman you rescue in the first game. It's contextualized as a movie showcasing the life of Jacket [HLM1's main PC]; the movie director is warping Jacket's life to fit a preconceived narrative: that Jacket was a rapist and that the woman he rescues in the first game was sexually assaulted and held in bondage."

    Dunno if it's petulance ("you're damned right he raped her") or a move to piss on idolization of Jacket or what; I didn't follow the complaints in question. I'd lean toward petulance, but, eh, authorial intent woo may be the worst flavor of woo.
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  8. #188
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    The tail is wagging you so hard at this point it's incredible, but I'll stay by your side, friend.
    Okay, I give up. For all the times you accuse me of not listening to your argument or somehow not listening to Cara, you're awfully good at doing the exact same thing. I don't know if I can make my position any more clear. You're apparently incapable of even seeing things from my perspective, as evidenced by your attempts to twist what I'm saying to suit your own argument.

    Believe what you want, but I don't concede that agency lies at the crux of this problem. Cara's problem is ultimately that the game has a rape sequence. You've never had any choice in the matter when it comes to Hotline Miami as anyone who's played the game would know. Her discomfort stems directly from the fact that the context suddenly changes from physical violence to sexual violence. That's the crux of the issue.

    Cara may or may not have realised that she didn't have player agency throughout HLM. When you look at the game, there's no agency beyond "how do I kill this guy?" If you can't see that point, then you apparently aren't paying attention to the game. Sequences where you lose control to the game or are forced into a particular action were in the first game too with executions. The difference? There was no sexual violence. Cara may feel that she lost agency but it's clear that it's the sexual violence that ultimately lies at the heart of the issue. The context makes all the difference in the world.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
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  9. #189
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    Out of curiosity, would anyone say that rape should never feature in or be alluded to in any game, in any way, for any reason?

    Would you extend that to books, music and film? If so, why? If not, why?

  10. #190
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    When you look at the game, there's no agency beyond "how do I kill this guy?" If you can't see that point, then you apparently aren't paying attention to the game. Sequences where you lose control to the game or are forced into a particular action were in the first game too with executions. The difference? There was no sexual violence. Cara may feel that she lost agency but it's clear that it's the sexual violence that ultimately lies at the heart of the issue. The context makes all the difference in the world.
    As I said, that point is a triviality; it neither elucidates nor clarifies. You chose – for whatever reason – to fixate on how the word agency was used. I didn't feel that burr in my butt; that was your compulsion.

    The previewer went in expecting to murder lots of people and then raped one. Whether it's agency or context or mechanics wasn't the salient point of the preview and, as you've clearly stated here, isn't the point of contention about the game itself.

    Hence tail wagging dog. Irrelevant detail (semantics over agency vs context) dominates larger issue (unexpected rape scene).

    We are of a kind in that respect, friend (wont to fixate on semantics). Que sera, sera.
    Last edited by Jambe; 20-08-2013 at 09:54 AM.
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  11. #191
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordcooper View Post
    Out of curiosity, would anyone say that rape should never feature in or be alluded to in any game, in any way, for any reason? Would you extend that to books, music and film? If so, why? If not, why?
    Never? No. Right now? Probably best to avoid it in most cases. Even the "oh so mature" indie sector has a remarkably hard time approaching any topic with anything even remotely resembling subtlety. I think any attempt at games right now to incorporate rape would come off as being exploitative or be subject to negative media... with the possible exception of male-rape since it seems to have a different place in our culture. After all prison-rape (with a practically exclusively male victim) is often a joke, and it involves the dominant gender in gaming demographics as the victim, so something involving sexual assault of a male would probably be noted as "challenging" or "confronting" no matter how poorly it was handled. I mean Far Cry 3 alluded to a rape committed against one of the male characters by a male antagonist, and nobody batted an eyelid (but of course the player wasn't involved, which separates it from HLM2).

    Books and film have matured to the point where there are some directors and writers who can approach the topic in the right way. Gaming is practically devoid of that. Gone Home, despite all of the hype, is still ridiculously clumsy with its teen-drama approach to relationships, and if gaming can't manage something like that then it hasn't got a hope in hell of approaching rape in the right way. Given the increased media attention regarding sexism and misogyny in gaming right now, it's best to just avoid it until things improve. Anything even approaching it is akin to painting a big target on your back.
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  12. #192
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordcooper View Post
    Out of curiosity, would anyone say that rape should never feature in or be alluded to in any game, in any way, for any reason?

    Would you extend that to books, music and film? If so, why? If not, why?
    No, that would be censorship.

    But lack of censorship is not the same as condoning bad art. And this is some bad fuckin' art.

    There's nothing wrong with the honest reaction that this is shit.
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  13. #193
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    But lack of censorship is not the same as condoning bad art. And this is some bad fuckin' art.
    No, you are just entirely incapable of appreciating the genius behind Hotline Miami 2 and their uncompromising quest to tackle what computer game violence really means to gamers. You sir are an enemy of gaming and artistic expression. You shall be taken from this place and hanged by the neck until you are dead. May hipsters have mercy on your soul.

    I also think Gone Home has a gripping story of teenage drama and The Path is the pinnacle of PC gaming.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
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  14. #194
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    No, you are just entirely incapable of appreciating the genius behind Hotline Miami 2 and their uncompromising quest to tackle what computer game violence really means to gamers. You sir are an enemy of gaming and artistic expression. You shall be taken from this place and hanged by the neck until you are dead. May hipsters have mercy on your soul.

    I also think Gone Home has a gripping story of teenage drama and The Path is the pinnacle of PC gaming.
    There's something to be said that allowing something to exist is implicitly condoning its message - especially in politics, which are practically as much about marketing as they are about practicality. But to that I say censuring is not censoring, and we can certainly criticize the fuck out of everything we want.

    After all, if the kumbaya crowd can accept that Anita Sarkessian is a bit dry and Dear Esther is lacking in mechanics, then the dudebro crowd can accept that bikini armor is alienating to at least half the potential audience and Call of Duty is not a manual of modern political doctrine.
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  15. #195
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sparkasaurusmex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Cara may or may not have realised that she didn't have player agency throughout HLM. When you look at the game, there's no agency beyond "how do I kill this guy?"
    If you press up your character moves up. That is agency in a game like HLM. In the "not-rape" scene in HLM2's demo that agency is taken away, you cannot control the character.

  16. #196
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    Its almost like the game was trying to say something about violence. As if it was... I don't know... trying to shock the player about their own character's action.
    “It’s like, ‘The Zebra’s so cool or the Tiger’s just punching him,’ but then they do something you don’t agree with, and that changes the whole way you look at them,” Wedin continued. “But you’re still helping them. You’re helping them get into the room and beat the shit out of this fucked up guy. In a way you’re part of it.”
    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013...r/#more-156840

    Why is the rape causing controversy now but the gang beating an unarmed man to death hasn't?
    Last edited by Bhazor; 20-08-2013 at 05:14 PM.
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  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    the "oh so mature" indie sector
    This is so funny I'm not even laughing

  18. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bhazor View Post
    Its almost like the game was trying to say something about violence. As if it was... I don't know... trying to shock the player about their own character's action.
    The problem with that argument is that it only affected Cara in the way it did because she was a woman and, for whatever reason, then identified with the woman in the scene, which made her so uncomfortable she didn't really want to play any more.

    Most men are not going to identify with the woman in that scene, so if that was the intent of the developer then they've failed. The number of people here saying the scene is entirely unproblematic is a testament to that. If her reaction was the intended one, that she's in a minority makes it an artistic failure.

    On the other hand, I can see the developers intending to make the player identify with the rapist, rather than the victim. And that could well be an uncomfortable and challenging thing to do. But by taking away the player agency at that point it tipped that scale for the original author. At that point she could have been identifying with the rapist or the victim, and her mind went to the victim. Had the game left you in control of the rapist (even if it refused to continue unless you initiated the deed) it's harder for the mind to do that. But once the game goes into cut-scene mode and makes you a passive observer again, it changes things.

  19. #199
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bhazor's Avatar
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    "You can be shocking, just don't hurt anyone's feelings."

    You can't praise a game for its shocking violence and then complain when the violence shocks someone.

    I also take serious exception to Cara's implication that a guy would be completely unaffected by the rape.
    Last edited by Bhazor; 20-08-2013 at 11:00 PM.
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  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    A load of stuf about how gaming isn't mature enough.
    How is it going to get mature enough if people can not experiment, get things wrong, learn form mistakes and then improve?

    This game is harming no one. It has an 18 certificate (I assume). You don't like it don't buy it. Think it gives a bad message, then complain about. But you can't stop people making it or people buying it.
    Last edited by Lone Gunman; 20-08-2013 at 10:55 PM.

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