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  1. #141
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Bit of a tangent, but one of the only times I got freaked out by violence in games was in metal gear solid 2, of all things.

    I was fine with tranquillising guards and I was also fine with alternately shooting them in the face. But if I shot a guy with a tranq and then shot the sleeping body with a pistol, it affected me quite a lot.

    Something about seeing someone sleeping, completely defenceless and no threat then snuffing them out was a bit more than standard game violence to me. Perhaps that's closer, if still nowhere near, to what we're dealing with here. When you take out the fight or flight shit we normally deal with.

    I dunno. I'm tired. I'm going to bed.
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  2. #142
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    To get back on the original topic: I think part of it is because we view "killing" in games as sparring - you spar with your virtualized oponents, and the game portrays it as them dying once you have defeated them. It's about overcoming challenges. And such. Your brain contextualizes it as a challenge.
    If it were a movie, I imagine our reactions would be quite different (I personally noted a huge difference between playing BF3 and watching "No country for old men", for example. I had HUGE problems with the latter).

    The rape scene on the other hand, is not about any of that. The brain has nothing to contextualize - as part of the story, the main character rapes someone. It is, at best, very hard to symphatize with such an character.
    Well put. I was trying to express a similar point earlier. That said, sympathizing with a character isn't always necessary and I doubt you were as disturbed by The Matrix as by No Country for Old Men, yes?
    Last edited by gwathdring; 18-08-2013 at 03:29 AM.
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  3. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    To get back on the original topic: I think part of it is because we view "killing" in games as sparring - you spar with your virtualized oponents, and the game portrays it as them dying once you have defeated them. It's about overcoming challenges. And such. Your brain contextualizes it as a challenge.
    Except not always. GTA is probably the prime example of a game where the average player will intentionally slaughter hundreds or thousands of unarmed, nonaggressive civilians. Hell, you'd struggle not to kill at least a hundred even if making a conscious effort not to. It's far from unique in this.

    the main character rapes someone. It is, at best, very hard to symphatize with such an character.
    No he doesn't. The main character of this fictional videogame appears to act out a scene in a fictional film that heavily implies rape is about to occur. There doesn't seem to be any actual rape portrayed (or even occurring off screen) even within the fictional film that this fictional game character is starring in. Even if it was portrayed (which doesn't seem to be the case), within the context of the game it would have been an actor pretending to rape (or maybe attempt to rape, the script might have had the guy get what's coming to him instead for all we know) an actress who had full knowledge of what they were about to act and is most certainly getting paid a similar amount to said actor. You know, acting. Like that incredibly well made scene in American History X (a film I can't recommend highly enough) where the protagonist gets brutally raped in prison, or that early episode of Breaking Bad where Walt tries to rape Skyler, or (arguably) several scenes in the Game of Thrones series, except one step further removed from reality, because even this film is contained in a game.

    Not only is no fictional character raped in that video, no fictional character is even pretending to rape/be raped.

    EDIT: This last bit is really just picking semantics, but if I understand correctly Hotline Miami 2 doesn't even have a main character.
    Last edited by lordcooper; 18-08-2013 at 02:07 AM.

  4. #144
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    The main character of this fictional videogame appears to act out a scene in a fictional film
    Is it hamlet style, discrete beginning-and-end film within a larger game? Or is it frame narrative as in the entire game is a film within a game?
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Is it hamlet style, discrete beginning-and-end film within a larger game? Or is it frame narrative as in the entire game is a film within a game?

    If I understand correctly there are multiple protagonists in this game. Some do the film thing, some don't.

    For more info.

  6. #146
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lordcooper View Post
    If I understand correctly there are multiple protagonists in this game. Some do the film thing, some don't.

    For more info.
    Huh. That sounds extremely bizarre and messy. It could be really rather fascinating if it works, and pops out. If that mixed-up structure ends up not poping out crisply enough, though, it'll just end up so much muddy window dressing. Color me intrigued by that aspect but still uninterested more generally.

    But in any case, the hamlet sort in a sense. I asked because the difference between what happens in the "game" and what happens in the "film" is more meaningful when the work draws a clear line between the two. Not that there's nothing interesting or meaningful to be said when it isn't clear where the frame starts and the picture begins, but just that said clarity is itself rather important to the context of the post to which I replied.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  7. #147
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Hypernetic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Why do threads like this bother you so much? I mean, so much that you evidently feel compelled to repeatedly speak up against them, in a manner which obviously isn't (because that would be hypocrisy, right?) you being offended, but is, let's be real, functionally indistinguishable from you being a little offended crybaby wah-wah-waahing at all the whole 2 threads on this forum about stuff you don't like.
    Now, now. There is no reason to act like a child. I'm merely trying to inject some reality into your pretentious circle jerks.

  8. #148
    Activated Node InnerPartisan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    Now, now. There is no reason to act like a child. I'm merely trying to inject some reality into your pretentious circle jerks.

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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Is it hamlet style, discrete beginning-and-end film within a larger game? Or is it frame narrative as in the entire game is a film within a game?
    It is actually a movie shot inside the game that is really another movie that takes place in a Taco Bell. If you happen to play it in a Taco Bell.

  10. #150
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    It is actually a movie shot inside the game that is really another movie that takes place in a Taco Bell. If you happen to play it in a Taco Bell.
    But who is the cameraman on the upper layer?
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  11. #151
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    like I said, I think the end boss youll have to rape.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  12. #152
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lone Gunman View Post
    I find the whole what is/isn't a game argument rather pointless. So lets have another one :p
    Well... it was worth a shot and now I got nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    One of the points of this game is, as an work of art, to ask these sort of questions and to start these discussions, which is exactly what is happening here.
    While I kind of agree that this is HLM's "message" it's still pretty clumsily handled, and it's sort of lost in the 'game' part. It seems that 'art games' often lose out either by not offering gameplay, or by being overshadowed by gameplay. The balance is hard to strike. HLM's attempts at highlighting your violent escapades is promptly forgotten at the point of "OMFG that knife missed that asshole and I got shot again maaaaaaan restart 2hard4me."

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    The rape scene on the other hand, is not about any of that. The brain has nothing to contextualize - as part of the story, the main character rapes someone. It is, at best, very hard to symphatize with such an character.
    Why do you need to sympathise with the character? Arguably it's more interesting to play as someone that you're repulsed by - and that'd fit in with HLM's theme. Being forced to do it against your will definitely isn't fun but if it's going for thought-provoking and challenging you, then it might be doing its job. Again that doesn't justify it but it might explain its inclusion. Much of the reason for the character in HLM killing people is a mystery - probably he's a hired killer, maybe he's just batshit insane and the phone isn't really talking to him, maybe he just likes killing, maybe he's desperate... you don't know. I don't know if contextualisation is overly relevant here, because some people don't need rational reasons to do what they do - and that makes it all the more horrifying. For example if you and I drew pistols at dawn and you mortally wounded me, people can understand that. If you just walked up, said "Sup friend?" and shot me at random, it's much more disturbing.

    The context of the game and violence as an easy adversarial mechanic isn't freed from this in a game like HLM. Yes, with violence you can justify it as a challenge, but if that's all you need to accept an event then that leads to a path where the rape is just another challenge, another way to defeat an enemy. I don't think that makes it any better, do you?
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  13. #153
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    No, I don't. I geuss I have just been desentized to violence too much already (although I don't play HM myself, as I find it too disturbing, I have no problems with, say, BF3). That being said, if a game offers me options to go non-lethal, I go non lethal in most circumstances (exceptions include some parts of Human Revolution, and the bandits in Metro: Last Light).

    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Well put. I was trying to express a similar point earlier. That said, sympathizing with a character isn't always necessary and I doubt you were as disturbed by The Matrix as by No Country for Old Men, yes?
    Actually, I found the Matrix (The first one) to be quite disturbing in the long run. The protagonists kill a lot of people in order to "liberate" them, a liberation which none of them knows, or even cares about in the first place. to them, they lead real lives (As their minds make it real) in which they are just as happy as we are in this life. Which their liberators are trying to end. Violently.
    Last edited by Grizzly; 18-08-2013 at 11:36 AM.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    Actually, I found the Matrix (The first one) to be quite disturbing in the long run. The protagonists kill a lot of people in order to "liberate" them, a liberation which none of them knows, or even cares about in the first place. to them, they lead real lives (As their minds make it real) in which they are just as happy as we are in this life. Which their liberators are trying to end. Violently.
    You would absolutely love a novel where a character is going around touching people, that touch kills them, but supposedly move them to a superior realm of existence. I forgot the title of it.

  15. #155
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    You would absolutely love a novel where a character is going around touching people, that touch kills them, but supposedly move them to a superior realm of existence. I forgot the title of it.
    The Bible?
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    to wound the autumnal city.

  16. #156
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    ^Nailed it.

  17. #157
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    both of you are the absolute worst. minus infinite points for killing a good joke.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  18. #158
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Actually, I found the Matrix (The first one) to be quite disturbing in the long run. The protagonists kill a lot of people in order to "liberate" them, a liberation which none of them knows, or even cares about in the first place. to them, they lead real lives (As their minds make it real) in which they are just as happy as we are in this life. Which their liberators are trying to end. Violently.
    Ah. I didn't find the meaty bits of the Matrix particularly compelling but as you did perhaps it's a bad example. James Bond, then. I was just getting at No Country For Old Men being intentionally disturbing. It was designed with disturbing the audience in mind. There are movies in which the violence is very much like that of BF3, at least for many viewers. I disagree that contextualizing violence is an inherent part of film in the way your post seemed to imply.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  19. #159
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Well, read the article.
    Still gonna buy the game, when I can (on sale probably). Can't say rape scene talks made me think about it some other way. Can't judge without experiencing it anyways. Loved first HLM, probably will enjoy second one.

    But do like an idea, that movie makers in the game depict the girl from first HLM as rape victim by main protagonist of that game. Kinda enjoy the idea, that movies sometimes go overboard with their recreations.
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  20. #160
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jaguar skills's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    both of you are the absolute worst. minus infinite points for killing a good joke.
    I thought he was talking about The Matrix 3 - Revolutationisticastical
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