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Thread: Gone Home

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    And your point exactly?
    Hearthstone is a joke, removing the Lands/creature block from MtG turns it into nothing but a simplistic brawl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mohorovicic View Post
    Hearthstone is a joke, removing the Lands/creature block from MtG turns it into nothing but a simplistic brawl.
    The fever dream is upon you it seems.
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  3. #103
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    @Soldant:

    In an attempt make it entirely clear:

    1. I questioned why you thought that Sam's homosexuality was meant to be a reveal or secret for the player to discover.

    You responded that Katie's been away while Sam met Lonnie and said that it was demonstrated that Katie didn't know by some of the contextual hint messages.

    You didn't say what these contextual hint messages were or why they made you think this came as a surprise to Katie, meaning you made an assertion without an argument or anything else to support it and I can do nothing with that. I saw nothing in the game to suggest the mere fact that Lonnie was gay was surprising to Katie.

    I responded with a quote that says Sam thinks Katie already knows and that she herself has known "since like, She-ra". She-ra is a cartoon from the mid 80s, so around 10 years before the events in Gone Home. That means that Katie being away when Sam met Lonnie has nothing to do with whether or not Katie could have known that Sam was gay. From the fact that Sam thinks she might know you can infer that there might be a reason.

    You said that "much of the logs suggest that Sam only really came to terms with it after meeting Lonnie", the "it" referring to the fact that she's homosexual. You once again didn't say which logs or what it was that made you think this. When I asked you which logs you were referring to you once again repeated the assertion without supporting it with any specifics. You then brought up the pirate story about how the first mate is transformed into a woman, which IIRC was written when Sam was in 9th grade, i.e. a couple of years before Sam met Lonnie.

    I have also said more than once that Katie having prior knowledge or not has no bearing on the story or how it plays out, so it does nothing to support your assertion that finding out your sister is gay is meant to be a secret to discover. You say in the first post I responded to that "you could see it from a mile away" and later go on to paint the obviousness and unavoidable realisation of discovering that Sam is gay as a flaw in the story.

    Well, imagine for a moment that Sam being gay really isn't a secret for you to discover but instead just a part of her character, like the fact that she's 17 years old or is an outsider at school. Imagine that the love story you detest so much, that the events described in journal entries and clues around the house are what Sam's story is actually about. Suddenly it starts looking like someone placing so much emphasis on finding out that she's gay is doing that all by themselves and the obviousness of her homosexuality is less a failure to hide a secret and more just a part of the story, which brings us to..

    2. Your repeated assertion that Sam's story is just about her being gay.

    For reference:

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It's an overly dramatic teenage love story where the big hook is that the girl is a lesbian.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    "Oh so I love this girl but she's going away woe is me did I mention I'm a lesbian?" every time I pick up a tape or notebook page or whatever.
    In response to me saying that finding out your sister is gay isn't the point of the story:
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I never said that, but it's clearly the focus of the story... after all that's why they spent so much time on it.
    Which is saying "I never said that, but that's what I'm saying."

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    It doesn't matter if Sam's story was about being a lesbian or falling in love with an inanimate carbon rod - her story was the focus of Gone Home. That story happens to be that she's a lesbian. Whatever else it could have been is entirely irrelevant. The story was stereotypical and it was the focus of the plot. I mention the fact that she's a lesbian because that's what the story actually was.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Sam being a lesbian is important in the story because it's the crux of her story, it's the main point.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    By all means keep focusing on the "Oh but being a lesbian wasn't the point!" argument as much as you like, but the fact of the story is that she is a lesbian, her problem is related to that relationship, and that's the plot that had the most time invested into it and was tied into progression." Any other twist or alternate story is irrelevant because that wasn't the story we were given!
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The lesbian plot points just happen to be what that story is - as I said she could be falling in love with teapots for all the difference it makes, it's what they spent most of their time on thus it's the central plot.
    No one as far as I can tell has at any point argued that Sam's story is not the central story. I've never mentioned Oscar or the parents - everything I've said has been about Sam's story. Still, you've gone on to directly quote both me and Gunner and try to make it out like we're trying to argue that Sam's story isn't central and that you're being misrepresented and crucified.

    It's this repeated assertion that Sam's sexual preferences are all there is to her story I take issue with, not whether her story is central. You dismiss her relationship with Lonnie as boring teenage romance (which, before you go off on one, is fine - no one is trying to make you like it) that only serves as a vehicle for letting you know she's gay. The other themes, about growing up, moving to a new school, being an outsider, her relationship to her family, music, friendship (both the "default friend" Daniel she left behind and her friendship with Lonnie which moves on to romance) , the ghost hunting - are they also just about her being a lesbian or could it perhaps be a story about growing up and finding yourself?

    Is Sam not home to meet you because she's gay or was it because the person she's in love with and thought she'd lost calls her and wants her to run away with her?

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Oh well done at taking this quote out of context. If you'd even read my earlier posts you'd note that I was quite positive about the other plot lines and the exploration phase - what I hated was Sam's story and how closely it's linked to progression. While the other (somewhat under-developed) plots are delivered in a much more subtle way, Sam's plot is positively ham-fisted by comparison. It ruined the experience for me and in my opinion it's only getting so much praise because it's one of the better attempts (which are mostly horrible).
    I asked an honest question. I didn't make any assertions. I quoted your entire paragraph. I was talking about Sam's story, just as I have been the entire time. How you perceive that as trying to take your quote out of context is frankly beyond me.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    You're free to disagree with my opinion, just like I'm free to disagree with any opinion that it's a frigign' masterpiece or something.
    I haven't said anything about what I thought of the game, nor have I tried to convince anyone that they should like it or said they're wrong for disliking it.
    Last edited by Skalpadda; 27-08-2013 at 05:38 PM. Reason: typos

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    1. I questioned why you thought that Sam's homosexuality was meant to be a reveal or secret for the player to discover.
    For the player it ultimately is a reveal (albeit telegraphed early) because the player doesn't know any of them. It's part of the plot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I responded with a quote that says Sam thinks Katie already knows and that she herself has known "since like, She-ra".
    That doesn't mean Katie does know nor does it mean Katie suspected back when She-Ra was on. It's a question. I can't recall of the hint nodes but there are plenty like "Oh god, Sam..." and similar which appear before the big break-down where Lonnie moves away. If Katie knew and was fine with it, I don't know why they'd be so dramatically phrased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I have also said more than once that Katie having prior knowledge or not has no bearing on the story or how it plays out, so it does nothing to support your assertion that finding out your sister is gay is meant to be a secret to discover.
    It's entirely possible that the discovery was supposed to be significant as a plot point and yet be totally obvious because their storytelling capability suddenly became piss-poor. Katie is barely more than a self-insert for the player - she has a little bit of background but it's flimsy. I'd find it rather pointless if Katie knew all around that Sam was gay for sure... it's the Gordon Freeman approach of "Here's a bunch of stuff that happened, now we'll talk like you already know because well this plot isn't going anywhere anyway..."

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    2. Your repeated assertion that Sam's story is just about her being gay.
    Right, this is where you're not understanding what I'm saying. I mention that she's homosexual because that's part of the story! The part that stands out is that it's a lesbian relationship - a stereotypical riot grrl one at that. It's one of the major plot points that the player discovers (ignore Katie for the moment since Katie doesn't matter, the player matters) and influences how the rest of the plot plays out. Your interpretation is that Katie knew - mine is that Katie may have suspected or didn't know, though Sam presumed that she did. It doesn't really matter either way because the player has no prior knowledge, and one of the big plot points is that Sam is in a lesbian relationship. Given how many times people bring up this point in criticisms you'd be hard pressed to argue that it isn't a major point.

    Apparently where we're misunderstanding each other is that you assume my argument is that it's the only plot point that matters - it isn't. As I keep saying it's supposed to be a big part of it but it's just part of Sam's story. I don't claim it's the one and only thing that matters and that everything else is just framing to learn she's a lesbian. But her being a lesbian is a major part of that plot because it introduces conflict and a sexual awakening (as evidenced by that note you only see for a few seconds). So many people who review it look at this as a central theme, something that is important to the plot. Hence why I don't see why it's such a sin to mention it as being important to the plot - because it is.

    Again we can disagree as much as we like about whether or not Katie knew but the player doesn't know when they start the game. They can infer it quickly though because, at least IMO, the story is so stereotypical that it becomes obvious fairly quickly. Within the context of the 90s though it might not have been so obvious. I choose to believe it's ham-fisted storytelling given how over the top it is, but if you choose to believe it was intentional, fine. Doesn't change the fact that it's something to learn which has a major impact on Sam's plot.


    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I haven't said anything about what I thought of the game, nor have I tried to convince anyone that they should like it or said they're wrong for disliking it.
    I'm not saying anybody's wrong for liking this game. If you loved it, great! My opinion is that it had a lot of potential that it subsequently pissed into the wind with a crappy teen lesbian love story.
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  5. #105
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus jnx's Avatar
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    Was a bit disappointed in the game after seeing it score so highly. This is basically Dear Esther with an absent homosexual sister. Yet Dear Esther has metacritic of 75 and this 90. I dare claim that without the sympathies for rebelling girl love this game would receive the same treatment as Dear Esther, and frankly, it would deserve it. Dear Esther was at least beautiful. Gone Home is at first intriguing but at the end I found myself thinking: "so was that all there was to it?".

    Replace Sam with a straight sis' or homosexual brother and the game would be rated mediocre at best. Welcome to the internet.
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  6. #106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jnx View Post
    This is basically Dear Esther with an absent homosexual sister.
    Well at least we're on the same page here...
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  7. #107
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    For the player it ultimately is a reveal (albeit telegraphed early) because the player doesn't know any of them. It's part of the plot.

    That doesn't mean Katie does know nor does it mean Katie suspected back when She-Ra was on. It's a question. I can't recall of the hint nodes but there are plenty like "Oh god, Sam..." and similar which appear before the big break-down where Lonnie moves away. If Katie knew and was fine with it, I don't know why they'd be so dramatically phrased.

    It's entirely possible that the discovery was supposed to be significant as a plot point and yet be totally obvious because their storytelling capability suddenly became piss-poor. Katie is barely more than a self-insert for the player - she has a little bit of background but it's flimsy. I'd find it rather pointless if Katie knew all around that Sam was gay for sure... it's the Gordon Freeman approach of "Here's a bunch of stuff that happened, now we'll talk like you already know because well this plot isn't going anywhere anyway..."
    The only one like that I can remember is "Gosh, Sam" when you find the Gentleman magazine in her locker. I read that as "Gosh, Sam, porn." rather than "Gosh, Sam, you're a lesbian", but maybe I missed something else?

    I read "You've known, right?" as seeking confirmation for an assumption - "You've known" being the assumption. At the very least you can deduce that it's not something Sam expects Katie to take as a big surprise. The diary entries are addressed to Katie because Sam has always told her sister everything and she's keeping on doing that in the diary while she's away. It tells of keeping the relationship secret from the parents and other kids at school but expresses no surprise from Sam that she's fallen for a girl and no expectation that Katie would think it was a big deal in itself.

    You're right that it's a reveal in the sense that it is something the player is made aware of during the course of the game, but I fail to see how that makes it a poorly concealed secret to discover, that they somehow failed at storytelling because it was obvious. Your argument seems to be that if it wasn't meant to be a secret it's bad, but I can't get that to follow.

    Being a lesbian by itself is just an attribute. It doesn't do anything on it's own, which is why I said it's part of the framing of the story rather than the point of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Apparently where we're misunderstanding each other is that you assume my argument is that it's the only plot point that matters - it isn't.
    Then don't say things like "That story happens to be that she's a lesbian" or "The lesbian plot points just happen to be what that story is", because I'm not psychic; I'm going to assume that you mean what you write.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I'm not saying anybody's wrong for liking this game. If you loved it, great! My opinion is that it had a lot of potential that it subsequently pissed into the wind with a crappy teen lesbian love story.
    I haven't said what I thought because I wanted to discuss the plot rather than value judgements of the plot. For what it's worth though, I enjoyed the story insofar as I had fun piecing it together and wanted to see it to the end. A lot of Sam's story resonated with me (I was 14 in 1995, which may have helped) but I can't say the game left any lasting impressions on me. I think some of the design decisions were a bit jarring (why is this teenager who's trying to keep her relationship secret leaving deeply personal clues all over the house?) and would have preferred the storytelling to be a bit more subtle.

    All in all I suspect a lot of the perfect 10 reviews the game has gotten have more to do with it being different than being great, but I'm glad I played it.
    Last edited by Skalpadda; 28-08-2013 at 05:20 PM.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    The only one like that I can remember is "Gosh, Sam" when you find the Gentleman magazine in her locker. I read that as "Gosh, Sam, porn." rather than "Gosh, Sam, you're a lesbian", but maybe I missed something else?
    Your reading is right - it's a nice little callback to an earlier (optional) moment. If you dig into one of the boxes of Terry's books a bit earlier on, you can find a similar magazine and Katie does the exact same line: "Gosh, dad".

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    I read "You've known, right?" as seeking confirmation for an assumption
    Which isn't itself proof that Katie knows - Sam only thinks she might know. That's why it's a question. Katie could be totally clueless for all we know, because she's just a vehicle for the player (who, upon starting the game, doesn't know unless you've been reading spoilers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Your argument seems to be that if it wasn't meant to be a secret it's bad, but I can't get that to follow.
    Your conclusion seems (?) to be that because it was obvious it must have been intended that way. My argument is that it was a plot point to be discovered and was obvious because it was so stereotypical, not out of any intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Being a lesbian by itself is just an attribute. It doesn't do anything on it's own, which is why I said it's part of the framing of the story rather than the point of it.
    I don't claim it to be the point, I claim it to be an integral point. It has a major influence on the story, particularly since it's set in the 90s when homosexuality was more exposed but still not as acceptable as it is today. It's not an unimportant tangent or framing device for Sam's story since it generates conflict within the plot. Katie going home after being away for however long on the other hand is a framing device.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Then don't say things like "That story happens to be that she's a lesbian" or "The lesbian plot points just happen to be what that story is", because I'm not psychic; I'm going to assume that you mean what you write.
    I don't know how I can make it any clearer. It just does so happen that she's a lesbian - but that isn't saying it's the only plot point at all, just that it's significant for the plot (which it is, the dynamics would change if she wasn't).

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    All in all I suspect a lot of the perfect 10 reviews the game has gotten have more to do with it being different than being great, but I'm glad I played it.
    We can agree on that at least. I enjoyed the rest of the game, but I didn't feel like I was piecing together anything when it came to Sam's story - it was delivered to me on a voice-acted plate. The other plots were much more entertaining for me because it felt like I was actually discovering things and it was up to me to piece it together - what was the character thinking, how did they feel about this, etc. Sam's story is an exercise in exposition because you're flat-out told what she thinks. That's why I think the story telling for Sam's story is bad.
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  10. #110
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Which isn't itself proof that Katie knows - Sam only thinks she might know. That's why it's a question. Katie could be totally clueless for all we know, because she's just a vehicle for the player (who, upon starting the game, doesn't know unless you've been reading spoilers).

    Your conclusion seems (?) to be that because it was obvious it must have been intended that way. My argument is that it was a plot point to be discovered and was obvious because it was so stereotypical, not out of any intent.
    I never said that she knows. Also, are you repeating my points from two pages ago now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skalpadda View Post
    Katie is just a vessel for the player so her knowing or not is ultimately inconsequential - whatever surprise or other emotions the player ascribes to her is them projecting their own.
    All I'm arguing is that Katie never shows any surprise, it is not presented as if it would be a surprise to her, it isn't presented as a surprise in the way it's revealed to the player and there are no attempts made to hide it. It's a direct argument in response to your assertion that finding out that Sam is gay is supposed to be a secret to discover. Also, "plot point" does not equal "secret".

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I don't claim it to be the point, I claim it to be an integral point.

    [*snip*]

    I don't know how I can make it any clearer.
    Well, I did cover that in the last reply, but if you wanted to say that Sam's homosexuality was a part of the story rather than the extent of the story and you're genuinely wondering how you could've made it clearer, a good start would've been to not say things like:

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    it's clearly the focus of the story
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That story happens to be that she's a lesbian.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I mention the fact that she's a lesbian because that's what the story actually was.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Sam being a lesbian is important in the story because it's the crux of her story, it's the main point.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The lesbian plot points just happen to be what that story is
    Last edited by Skalpadda; 30-08-2013 at 05:23 AM.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That story happens to be that she's a lesbian.
    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Sam's story, which happens to be a happy ending lesbian teenage love drama.
    I don't think you realise how different those two statements are.

    If Sam's story was a happy ending straight teenage love drama, you would never have started the discussion by claiming "The story is that she's straight".

    The story of sad ending teenage straight love drama Romeo and Juliet is not that Juliet likes cock.

    In an alternate universe if the story was that Sam was secretly an FBI agent out to kill her father, I'd mention that as being the central plot.
    Right, but you wouldn't say the plot was "Sam is an FBI agent" because that ignores half the plot right?

    I can't deny Sam being gay isn't a big issue in the narrative, but the main plot is actually just the stereotypical (and fairly dull) teenage love story. It touches on plenty of themes and aspects to relationships and growing up that are universal regardless of sexuality. That she's gay may well be the only interesting or slightly different thing in this story but that doesn't mean it is the plot.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    I don't think you realise how different those two statements are.
    No, they're really not. She engages in a lesbian relationship. Sam is a lesbian. These are facts as presented by the story. My very first post in this thread says that "It's an overly dramatic teenage love story where the big hook is that the girl is a lesbian." That's its main differentiating factor. I'm certain it was part of their plan to include this to create an interesting setting, since this plot point seems to resonate the most with people (with the father's story coming second). Sam being a lesbian is the only thing that introduces any sort of interesting element to the plot... but it's such a crap plot that it doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    If Sam's story was a happy ending straight teenage love drama, you would never have started the discussion by claiming "The story is that she's straight".
    Sam being a lesbian is integral to her story. As you say if it was a straight story it'd just be a pedestrian teenage drama. Her being a lesbian changes the dynamics a bit and alters the story.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Right, but you wouldn't say the plot was "Sam is an FBI agent" because that ignores half the plot right?
    Depends on the plot, if Sam being an FBI agent created some sort of drama or was a big part of the plot I'd mention it as being significant, yes. If it was just mentioned by way of passing, it wouldn't matter. It's like saying her father is a writer - it's integral to the plot because it creates an interesting dynamic with his own father and what happened to Terry as a child.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    That she's gay may well be the only interesting or slightly different thing in this story but that doesn't mean it is the plot.
    It's still a major part of the plot since it's a device used to generate conflict and it describes the relationship she's in.
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    I agree with all that. Her being a lesbian is the 'hook' and a big part of the plot. But that doesn't mean that it's the entire plot, which is what you started claiming some pages in. The plot is the teenage love story - just because you find it dull or boring doesn't mean you can ignore it and say the plot is something else instead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    But that doesn't mean that it's the entire plot, which is what you started claiming some pages in.
    Oh screw it, I've had enough of this. I never claimed it was the only plot point, I was only reacting to Skal claiming that it wasn't supposed to be something that Katie/the player discovers because it was so obvious, I maintain that it's obvious because of crap storytelling. At no point did I ever claim it was the entire plot. The two issues have apparently become confused as I've tried to argue that Sam's homosexuality was something the player/Katie was discovering (or at least exploring) which was integral to the plot, and suddenly that's morphed into "Sam being gay is the only reason there's a game at all."

    Post #65 is where Skal decided that I'd said that Sam being gay was the only point of the entire plot. After that I said that Sam being gay (referencing her lesbian relationship, not simply that she's gay the end) and the exposition behind her story was clearly the focus of the story since it was tied to progression (you don't advance through the house without uncovering her story).
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