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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    No, Soldant and I used "compelling" in a manner to which to describe something that compels us.
    I think this probably shows that we're getting ourselves more into a mess by sticking to the word in this context. I suppose you were using the word as something closer to the broad and rather jargony usage of 'entertaining' - in that the game holds your attention.

    (Edit: Reading back, I've no idea why I mentioned Soldant in that post.)

    Whatever. I don't think there's a problem in appreciating that we're capable of being 'held' by a game in a variety of ways - because we find it fun, because it's interesting, because it's beautiful, because it's confronting us with a different view - but some of which we might, on reflection, not really care to indulge - because it's good at conditioning us perhaps.
    Last edited by Zetetic; 30-08-2013 at 02:51 PM.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Not that it matters, the point yet remains: Of all the addictions of the world, this is one of the most benign, the occasional dead Korean kid in some internet cafe notwithstanding.
    Yeah, and did you see that school hit by an incendiary bomb, on Newsnight?

    Apologies, it's almost as if it's a really tedious observation that there are much worse and important and things in the world than what we're discussing.

    (It is interesting to think why it's such a relatively easy 'addiction' to break. I suppose it's quite easy to rid yourself of most of the visual cues - and those are what you're concentrating on after all - just by closing the game. I wonder if there's something in that and the effect on someone who goes to a nearby internet cafe only to play Starcraft.)

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetetic View Post
    Apologies, it's almost as if it's a really tedious observation that there are much worse and important and things in the world than what we're discussing.
    And it's an intellectually dishonest observation to compare it to those more harmful addictions in the first place by using the same terminology. At worst it's like gambling, and if anything the more egregious examples are already being regulated as gambling for that very reason.
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  4. #64
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    I've tried to be careful about making that comparison - scarequoting it and explicitly saying that I think we can discuss the issue without adverting to it.

    I think it may prove useful as a comparison in so far as we can point to some of the same cognitive mechanisms being employed when it comes to environmental cues, and so on, and it can be useful to getting at that sometimes quite difficult to convey sense of affectless drive.

    At worst it's like gambling, and if anything the more egregious examples are already being regulated as gambling for that very reason.
    Certainly the more obvious examples.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetetic View Post
    I've tried to be careful about making that comparison - scarequoting it and explicitly saying that I think we can discuss the issue without adverting to it.
    You are not the only person on this thread. If it read like I was referring to you specifically, for that I apologize. But this thread was started because of the very insinuations I mentioned.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  6. #66
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    People dance a lot around this subject.Usually with sugestions rather than facts. For a good reason, cristal clear stuff is hard to cross bytalking about something that's not really a science yet, rather more a modern woodoo.

    But then what's clear ?
    It's clear that a branch of today's software design has the sole purpose of making the next aplication more addictive than the last one.They learn, train, work and get payed for this sole purpose.Ok, lots of stupidity in that area and the information they work with is rather woodoo than exact science. But when lots of people do that continously, the * is gonna result other than more addictive software ?

    I won't even call them games.Thist software is "an aplication to extract money from imbecils while displaying shinny colors on theyr screens, or whatever the * they fancy".

    An honest endeavor up till this point exept for that addiction effort. Soda producers do that, but they get regulated. Fast food industry, toys, gambling, everyone does it. But just the same everyone gets regulated.
    Games, erm, not so much.Games can sell the most addictive possible crap to kids directly to the comfort of they rooms.Did I say kids? Heh. The target is any individual with a weakness. Lack of social life or skills, of education, of experience and so on and so forth.Those things are not games.
    Last edited by tadada; 22-10-2013 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Formating

  7. #67
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    f* mobile browesers,sry for the formating mess, folks, not my fault.

  8. #68
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    What do you propose as a regulatory measure or criterion? Doesn't have to be an especially good one, but something to ballpark with. I can't think of one even worth toying with. I don't think this kind of problem you're describing can be fixed top-down. Chemically addictive substances, measurable quantities of harmful or unhealthy ingredients? Those can be managed top-down ... to a point. Even that's kinda messy and not always effective.

    The kinds of things you're describing? I don't see how regulation can fix it even when it is clearly a problem for a given individual or with a given piece of software. Let alone properly account for where the problem really comes from and how often there isn't a problem at all.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 01-09-2013 at 01:08 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    The kinds of things you're describing? I don't see how regulation can fix it even when it is clearly a problem for a given individual or with a given piece of software. Let alone properly account for where the problem really comes from and how often there isn't a problem at all.
    Pretty much this, in fact we're ultimately failing at combating medically significant addictions like methamphetamine (I am the one who knocks!) or hell even problems related to alcohol. Having people play games is so far down the list of "addictive stuff that should be fixed" that it's not even worth mentioning.

    Even then a lot of the article is conjecture, even if it is referenced. We're a long way away from the Matrix.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  10. #70
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Pretty much this, in fact we're ultimately failing at combating medically significant addictions like methamphetamine (I am the one who knocks!) or hell even problems related to alcohol. Having people play games is so far down the list of "addictive stuff that should be fixed" that it's not even worth mentioning.

    Even then a lot of the article is conjecture, even if it is referenced. We're a long way away from the Matrix.
    It's worth mentioning if for no other reason that it engages people to think about how and why they play games and gives them another perspective from which to value the way they spend their time. It's not worth regulating.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  11. #71
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    Again excuse my post formatting.

    Well there's always a good thing to maintain proportions. To do that you have to have numbers, to be able to compare. How many people get screwed for what ammount of cash ? Keep in mind that that's not necesarrely the exact damage done, but it's a preatty acurate way to meajure it.

    You want to sell addictive stuff? Good, knock your self out, but the shit gets taxed as the addictive shit that it is.

    I had second thoughts thinking about why in the world shuld i want governement regulation over something related to free enterprise, tech developement and jobs.The answer is simple: because that's the only way to deal with addictive stuff, alchool, hard drugs and gambling included.Cocain and amphetamins included.Weed included.Addictive software included.They should all be legally available but taxed in accordance to the damage they can make, as a deterrent.
    Last edited by tadada; 22-10-2013 at 03:55 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Having people play games is so far down the list of "addictive stuff that should be fixed" that it's not even worth mentioning.
    Oh, there's a list - you should have said. How far down this list is stuff worth mentioning?
    I'm sure whichever ombudsman monitors the efficiency of internet forums, with respect to spending their time discussing high up the Soldant Lists, must be disgusted.
    Last edited by Zetetic; 01-09-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadada View Post
    Again excuse my post formating.Well there's always a good thing to mentain proportions.To do that you have to have numbers, to be able to compare.How many people get screwed for what ammount of cash ? Keep in mind that that's not necesarrely the exact damage done, but it's a preatty acurate way to meajure it.You want to sell addictive stuff? Good, knock your self out, but the shit gets taxed as the addictive shit that it is. I had second thoughts thinking about why in the world shuld i want governement regulation over something related to free enterprise, tech developement and jobs.The answer is simple: because that's the only way to deal with addictive stuff, alchool, hard drugs and gambling included.Cocain and amphetamins included.Weed included.Addictive software included.They should all be legally available but taxed in accordance to the damage they can make, as a deterrent.
    You misunderstand me. How do we structure our regulations to isolate the "addictive" games from the harmless ones? Personally, I'd argue it's a poor distinction to make in the first place, but assuming for a moment that there's a collection of games that are harmfully addictive ... how do we measure that? How do we measure the harmful addictiveness?

    Or do we just start taxing all games or all games of a certain genre or several genres, passing that cost burden onto the players, addicted and not-addicted alike?

    Once thing I find troubling about taxing addictive or dangerous substances is that it puts the government in a position of abusing addicts rather than punishing the makers of addictive substances. The tobacco company might be hurt in a relativistic sense by cigarette taxes. They lose sales they would otherwise have. But they make plenty of money anyway, and guess who ends up paying the tax? Whether it's technically applied to the company or applied directly to the customer at point of sale, the customer--the addict--ends up punished not only by the addictive substance but by the tax, too. Of course, raising costs in this way limits the market for new users, but it's still a really squicky way to deal with dangerous or addictive substances. Do we really want to fund government programs with taxes that leech addicts? Do we really want to take advantage of people who can't help but buy certain products by forcing them to pay more?
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zetetic View Post
    Oh, there's a list - you should have said. How far down this list is stuff worth mentioning?
    I'm sure whichever ombudsman monitors the efficiency of internet forums, with respect to spending their time discussing high up the Soldant Lists, must be disgusted.
    Hyperbole flies right over your head?

    My point is that none of this is even worth worrying about - it's just an interesting commentary which will briefly give the marketeers a hardon for neuroscience and dopamine, before everybody forgets about it and goes back to doing whatever they enjoy. Is it interesting? Yes. Does it have a practical application? Maybe some day, but not right now. Is it even causing any significant harm? Not really, no. Not compared to addictive substances like methamphetamine.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

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