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  1. #41
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    I signed up to these forums (finally) to respond to some of the stuff being said about the article.

    As far as closing the comments section goes, I can say with some level of certainty that it was not closed because a host of comments were being deleted. I had the article open in a tab and was refreshing on a regular basis as I did my usual browsing on the web - read the game news, read the actual news, visit facebook, etc. There were 92 comments before the thread was closed - a number that rose steadily and did not drop through my multiple refreshes. There are now 91 comments. The 1 comment that was removed was a spambot who had replied to a comment I made at the start of the article.

    So, in light of that, the only conclusion I can come to is that RPS closed the comments thread because their readers didn't give them the reaction that they had expected. I know RPS will proudly say that we don't have the luxury of freedom of speech on their site and I agree that we shouldn't. However, I do believe, as I stated elsewhere on the site, that if RPS is serious about broaching these tough subjects then they should be ready to accept that they're not going to be met with 100% agreement and if any progress is to be made in such discussions, there needs to be the willingness on both sides to listen to the other - if that means keeping a comment thread open or stepping in to tell a poster that they're out of line then that's what you've got to do. You'll win no favours by admonishing your readership constantly or wholesale silencing them.

    Now, to the topic at hand. As I stated in the comments section of the HLM article, this kind of knee-jerk reaction to something like implied rape (or maybe a game featuring American soldiers in a less than positive light - Remember that?) isn't doing the industry any good. If we are to grow as an art form or, more simply, a form of entertainment, we must be willing to face such topics and tackle them head-on. We'll get nowhere having the same kind of knee-jerk reactions that we despise mass media outlets for. Gaming will be relegated to cheap thrills or B-movie scripts because every developer - not to mention the publishers - will be too reticent to even consider including subject matter which may cause offense.

    Books, I believe, are a good example of where we need to be in regards to all this. Over the course of centuries, we have gone from banning and burning books that may cause offense to someone's sensibilities or ideals to proudly embracing such subject matter so as to allow the medium to grow rich with stories of all shapes and sizes. To show the disparity between where books are now and where games are, I think a good question to ask would be this: Could we, now, accept a developer making a game based on Nabokov's Lolita? I'll leave the answer up to ye.

    If a piece of art or entertainment offends you, upsets you or otherwise appalls you in some manner, the answer isn't to seek to destroy/change it. That attitude is, frankly, medieval; in every way. Search Amazon for a book called Prince of Thorns. It's one of the best fantasy novels I've read in a long time and many people wholeheartedly agree. Read some of the reviews for that book. Much like with HLM, Prince of Thorns starts on a very sour note. It goes much further than HLM "implied rape as part of a movie shoot" and, understandably, quite a few people dropped the book after getting to that point. Those of us who did not, however, saw the context of it all - the reason for its inclusion - and we were able to see how including this particular piece of the plot affected not only how the tale played out but how we, the readers, felt about the protagonist.

    As I see it, you can be one of two things in this situation - you can crow about how something in a game offended or upset you and you can demand and cry for change, banning, burning, whatever. Or, as I would hope any intelligent adult would do, you can accept that this is/isn't your cup of tea and move on. Gaming should be for everyone but not every game should be designed to please everyone.

    Aaaaand I'm going to stop there. I hadn't expected to write so much but once my fingers start going, it can be hard to stop them. Not bad for a first post though, eh? :D
    Last edited by MasterDex; 06-09-2013 at 03:36 PM.

  2. #42
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    "It's quickly revealed that the whole thing is part of an in-game movie" So no rape, so what is the problem again? apart from one or more writers at RPS having been raped and that meaning no one is allowed to put it in games.

  3. #43
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    tradaa, if that's what you took from the article, go and smush your face into a toilet until you know better.
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  4. #44
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    It's the only explanation I can come up with for the turn around on their "games can be adult to" stick. (Been implied in a lot of comments, might as well just say it)


    one word grindhouse.....

    Edit
    Feel compelled to post http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle_vv.html

    Also just want to make clear that I do think rape is wrong.

    fallout 2 had someone falsely claiming rape and I think fallout NV had one mission that touched the subject, can't think of any others.
    Last edited by tradaa; 06-09-2013 at 04:05 PM.

  5. #45
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    No-one is saying it shouldn't be in games. What they are doing is questioning the necessity, which is perfectly valid. It's fine to put this stuff in games if you've thought about it, but developers should be ready to answer questions on why. Which the HM devs did fairly well in that article I thought? And RPS haven't decided to boycott HM2 because they haven't promised to change it have they?

  6. #46
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    Why do we need mindless slaughter in every other game?

    Did fallout need to include rape? did RPS call them out as well?

    You know what would be nice instead of these targeted fluff pieces..... an in-depth article on rapes portrayal in games, "Custer's revenge" is as good a place to start as any, could probably go earlier though.
    Last edited by tradaa; 06-09-2013 at 04:15 PM.

  7. #47
    I'm going to say one more thing on this topic though. If RPS were film critics and they had their way, A Clockwork Orange would have been a 20 minute short about a weird looking kid who liked Ludwig van Beethoven.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wibbster View Post
    I've read and re-read that article, and I just cannot see where the accusations of bullying are coming from. Here's how I see it.
    - Developer releases a demo of their game
    - Some people find inclusion of scene in game offensive
    - RPS asks developer for their view and whether they are changing anything
    - Developer explains that the demo is not fully representative of the characters involved in the scene in question
    - RPS asks if they are planning on including that scene in the full game
    - Developer says that they feel that there is good reason for the scene, but that they will re-examine their justification to make sure.

    At no point did RPS demand that it be removed, and at no point did the developer say it was going to be removed.
    This is what happened.

    I am getting sick of the defensive argument of censorship and removing authorship from developers. Art is produced, especially mass produced collaborative efforts, in a feedback between artist and audience. If they choose to change their game it's not censorship, it's a thoughtful process.

    The HM team's responses quite clearly show this.

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    This video may be relevant in a stupid way to this discussion (it is one of those lame ass GTA V spoof advertisements... they've really lost their way in being funny).

    It plays on the American values where we can watch extreme violence on TV, but not sexual relations (mainly consensual sexual relations).

    I find the video has no humour though... GTA has lost it's humour since GTA IV... which was so humourless... (anyway this was besides my point)

    My question is this:

    Do people see the argument of pop culture violence vs. pop culture sex as the the same as pop culture violence vs. pop culture rape?

    I'm worried this parallel is kind of being drawn, based on the context of USA's possible hypocrisy here, that sexual cultural media is worse than violent cultural media (oddly this is more opposite in Germany from what I read in the news, particularly about the retort by the German Pirate Party leader about her 'sexual advertisement' and how news agency 'bild' regularly prints naked woman lol, I thought that was funny).

    The only reason I'm asking this is because I think in places where sexual popular culture media is more acceptable like in Europe, I don't think rape is necessarily very accepted.

    So I just wanted to pre-emptively strike at the notion that we should not equate sexual relations and sexual media with consensual context with rape.

    Anyway carry on, I missed most of the middle of this thread anyway, I will try to read it soon.
    Now, to the topic at hand. As I stated in the comments section of the HLM article, this kind of knee-jerk reaction to something like implied rape (or maybe a game featuring American soldiers in a less than positive light - Remember that?) isn't doing the industry any good. If we are to grow as an art form or, more simply, a form of entertainment, we must be willing to face such topics and tackle them head-on. We'll get nowhere having the same kind of knee-jerk reactions that we despise mass media outlets for. Gaming will be relegated to cheap thrills or B-movie scripts because every developer - not to mention the publishers - will be too reticent to even consider including subject matter which may cause offense.

    Books, I believe, are a good example of where we need to be in regards to all this. Over the course of centuries, we have gone from banning and burning books that may cause offense to someone's sensibilities or ideals to proudly embracing such subject matter so as to allow the medium to grow rich with stories of all shapes and sizes. To show the disparity between where books are now and where games are, I think a good question to ask would be this: Could we, now, accept a developer making a game based on Nabokov's Lolita? I'll leave the answer up to ye.

    If a piece of art or entertainment offends you, upsets you or otherwise appalls you in some manner, the answer isn't to seek to destroy/change it. That attitude is, frankly, medieval; in every way. Search Amazon for a book called Prince of Thorns. It's one of the best fantasy novels I've read in a long time and many people wholeheartedly agree. Read some of the reviews for that book. Much like with HLM, Prince of Thorns starts on a very sour note. It goes much further than HLM "implied rape as part of a movie shoot" and, understandably, quite a few people dropped the book after getting to that point. Those of us who did not, however, saw the context of it all - the reason for its inclusion - and we were able to see how including this particular piece of the plot affected not only how the tale played out but how we, the readers, felt about the protagonist.

    As I see it, you can be one of two things in this situation - you can crow about how something in a game offended or upset you and you can demand and cry for change, banning, burning, whatever. Or, as I would hope any intelligent adult would do, you can accept that this is/isn't your cup of tea and move on. Gaming should be for everyone but not every game should be designed to please everyone.

    Aaaaand I'm going to stop there. I hadn't expected to write so much but once my fingers start going, it can be hard to stop them. Not bad for a first post though, eh? :D
    Nice post.

    I agree the issue should be taken head on, in the sense it should be more discussed. I am also against censorship or anything of the sort. I think a civil discussion can take place about this issue, e.g. why it became a knee jerk reaction, why it could offend people versus how game violence in general never offends people nearly as much, or why it matters that rape was in this game, because it's an interesting and new thing, and I think it deserves attention.

    I think we should do these things before we for example pick sides, because if we pick sides first and just bitch and whine about how one another is so wrong, we will never get to actually analyze what is actually happening. And it's something really interesting and it would suck if everyone would lose out the opportunity to final discuss this in relation to videogames, if only a few people want to sling mud at one another.

    I can pick out other media including books where underage consensual sex has been completely acceptable. So we should not immediately think that all of X group of people or all of Y group of people are anarchists or just want complete censorship. There is a complex topic here and it would be great to actually discuss, not to just "get mad" if you will.
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    No-one is saying it shouldn't be in games. What they are doing is questioning the necessity, which is perfectly valid. It's fine to put this stuff in games if you've thought about it, but developers should be ready to answer questions on why. Which the HM devs did fairly well in that article I thought? And RPS haven't decided to boycott HM2 because they haven't promised to change it have they?
    I don't believe so. I'm very happy Dennaton Games have been communicating with the media after PCGamer's/Cara's article.

    Quote Originally Posted by cheal View Post
    This is a perfectly reasonable view. And correct. Rape, for it's survivors, it's victims is extremely truamatic and damaging.

    The problem with this particular article is the creeping agenda influencing the writing further on RPS. I have no problem with the sort of columnistic articles by some of the writers on issues outside of just gaming news. Things that are wider social issues. That's fine and I can happily disagree and move on.

    However the HM2 article was an artist (presuming that the readers and writers of this site believe games can be "art") under attack from a journalist for stepping over the line (in that journalists view).

    You're argument is a valid explanation for why this scene felt out of place or inappropriate. It is not an explanation for why they should not have attempted it. And that is the problem. For me, this IS an ART medium and what an artist sets out to do will rarely always work, but they should never be intimidated into self-censorship.

    This article was a really dangerous step toward the RPS (feminist) agenda skewing real content. The closing of comments was an utter disgrace. One of the more coherent comment threads, yet closed because the vast majority disagreed with this pathetic article. Really sad.
    Thanks for your feedback :)

    I also agree we shouldn't seek censorship, but I like that you suggest we can ask for an explanation.
    Last edited by rockman29; 06-09-2013 at 08:16 PM.

  10. #50
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    I read "Rape Survivors" as "Rape Souvenirs." I guess that would be, what, a baby?
    "What were we talking about? Pegasuses, pegasii, that's horses with wings. This motherf*cker got a sword that talks to him. Motherf*cker live in places that don't exist, it comes with a map. My God."

  11. #51
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    Why aren't RPS covering the occulus rift and it's implications in this area?

  12. #52
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    what I dont get is that RPS can want all the things in the world, that doesnt mean they have the power to influence anyone.

    last time I checked, Cara is still just a freelancer. Nathan just interviewed a guy without staying partial.

    John didnt even annoy kadayi this time!
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  13. #53
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    I just-- What happened here? This is the weirdest AARGH WIMMIN IN MAH GAEMS blowups yet.

    Nobody forced anybody to do anything! The devs found out a scene was doing the very opposite of what they wanted it to do, so they cut it until they can fix that.That's not censorship, that's playtesting.

    And closing those comments was good policy if only for how supremely boring they were becoming.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    what I dont get is that RPS can want all the things in the world, that doesnt mean they have the power to influence anyone.
    I think you're mixing up your terms here. They don't have power, but they do have influence. Jim mentioned in other thread recently that RPS is kindof a big deal now and developers know this as well, of course.

    Anyway, one of the problems with the article, this thread and even my original post is that there are several things wrong here that tend to be mixed up when trying to discuss them. It starts with a leading question and just goes downhill from there, into the comments, up to the closure and then here.
    Thanks to everyone for contributing (yes, even the ones who missed the point). I'm off to try to make a post on a single, clear subject. :)

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