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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    I don't see any substantive difference in "you are a pile of dogshit" and "your beliefs are a pile of dogshit" when it's patently clear that bans are not a reformative or rehabilitative practice and we cannot separate people from their views on a discussion forum. By all intents and purposes, people on these fora are no more than the summation of their views, and that is the manner in which we interact with one another.
    Point well taken, but there are more options on the table "Then you are a shitstain" and "Your beliefs are a shitstain." Frankly, do you think these insults makes enough of a difference in either how acceptable an extreme poster's behavior appears to others or in how that poster feels about posting? Being provoked or getting overwhelmed is one thing, but do you actually think it works? Because in my mind, part of the problem with the kind of poster we're fed up with is that they simply don't care about the community's perception of them and aren't really interested in working with community members to come to an understanding about how we want conduct to work around here. Insulting them doesn't seem to me it would be any more productive than ignoring them, making your emotional/moral discomfort clear without insults, disagreeing without insults, or reporting someone guilty of consistently (if implicitly) unexcellent content.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Point well taken, but there are more options on the table "Then you are a shitstain" and "Your beliefs are a shitstain." Frankly, do you think these insults makes enough of a difference in either how acceptable an extreme poster's behavior appears to others or in how that poster feels about posting? Being provoked or getting overwhelmed is one thing, but do you actually think it works?
    Someone was being unpleasant and called me a 'fucking idiot' on here the other week, so I said the most horrible thing I could thing of to them and they haven't been back since. I've only tried it once but I'm on a 100% success rate...

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Someone was being unpleasant and called me a 'fucking idiot' on here the other week, so I said the most horrible thing I could thing of to them and they haven't been back since. I've only tried it once but I'm on a 100% success rate...
    Success!!!

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Someone was being unpleasant and called me a 'fucking idiot' on here the other week, so I said the most horrible thing I could thing of to them and they haven't been back since. I've only tried it once but I'm on a 100% success rate...
    I'm getting a 50% there. But I suppose if we all keep a special, trump-card insult on hand for special occasions we can ensure we're on the winning half when it counts.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 10-09-2013 at 10:14 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Point well taken, but there are more options on the table "Then you are a shitstain" and "Your beliefs are a shitstain." Frankly, do you think these insults makes enough of a difference in either how acceptable an extreme poster's behavior appears to others or in how that poster feels about posting? Being provoked or getting overwhelmed is one thing, but do you actually think it works?
    If the person has any ego at all, yes. Yes it does.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    If the person has any ego at all, yes. Yes it does.
    Doesn't seem to, but I don't follow you around waiting for you to call assholes on their asshole-ness so perhaps I have a bad sample.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I think it's fair enough for the mods to not look at worldview or personality when people are posting in good faith. Plenty of people in that thread were occasionally expressing worldviews that some people would reasonably find offensive, but they weren't trying to be offensive, it's just something that occasionally happens in discussions. Especially in internet forum discussions where people typical post what the "reckon" after thinking for no more than 5 minutes.

    That's no reason for the moderators to restrict themselves to moderating insults though. Mohohohororovic was clearly making posts designed to offend people and make them angry. That's more than sufficient for a warning to stop trolling and then a ban if he continues.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    That's no reason for the moderators to restrict themselves to moderating insults though. Mohohohororovic was clearly making posts designed to offend people and make them angry. That's more than sufficient for a warning to stop trolling and then a ban if he continues.
    What about a certain other forum member's "It's not rape if she can't say no" mentality ("Borderline consensual" "It's your duty to preserve the human race")? What do we do with those "Not sure if trolling, or just really really bigoted" situations?

  9. #29
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    those were the situations were dealing with. I hope they are also included into our spooling up the death machine.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  10. #30
    Vector Jams O'Donnell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    What do we do with those "Not sure if trolling, or just really really bigoted" situations?
    Trolling: bad
    Bigot bilge: bad

    If you see either, report it.
    Last edited by Jams O'Donnell; 11-09-2013 at 11:23 AM.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    ...or the restrictions lifted on mob rule so we can shout them down ourselves.
    You are naive here, Nalano. If you start calling people names, what you will do is attract more trolls. Trolls love name-calling type of discussions. Trolls love toxic communities. If you go there, you start chain reaction that will explode in your face.

    Or maybe you know that and you was doing a false dichotomy fallacy.

  12. #32
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    I think it's fair enough for the mods to not look at worldview or personality when people are posting in good faith. Plenty of people in that thread were occasionally expressing worldviews that some people would reasonably find offensive, but they weren't trying to be offensive, it's just something that occasionally happens in discussions.
    Innocently bigoted?

    Irony aside, fuck 'em.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    You are naive here, Nalano. If you start calling people names, what you will do is attract more trolls. Trolls love name-calling type of discussions. Trolls love toxic communities. If you go there, you start chain reaction that will explode in your face.

    Or maybe you know that and you was doing a false dichotomy fallacy.
    Suffice it to say I've been on forums longer than you. Trolls needs a certain environment to work in and we're already giving it to them in spades. The ability to tar, feather, and carry them outta town on a log is something that can work against that.
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  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Innocently bigoted?

    Irony aside, fuck 'em.
    Did you read what Nathan actually posted? Are you saying that, if in discussion, you take offense to someone's post, even though no offense was intended, perhaps they didn't get their message across correctly, English isn't their first language, their joke didn't carry across properly, they were mistaken but posting in good faith, you've misunderstood them etc... That they're a bigot because you have decreed and should be banned?

    That's one of my problems with this whole thing... Who is supposed to decide that someone is a 'bigot' and bring down the Hammer? I don't think I'd be comfortable if it was Nalano here.

    Moho is gone, for me not because they were a 'bigot', but because they were a troll... they were deliberately posting messages designed to incite angry responses. Which, you know, calling them a shit-stain, was probably what they were looking for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Suffice it to say I've been on forums longer than you. Trolls needs a certain environment to work in and we're already giving it to them in spades. The ability to tar, feather, and carry them outta town on a log is something that can work against that.
    Vigilante lynchings is your solution to the problem? You should probably remember what Jim said in the other thread... you may reserve the right to attack those you deem to be wrong-minded, but you are not allowed to do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  14. #34
    Network Hub sendmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    One would hope we can promote an atmosphere where bigoted views do not have cache. What I see on RPS forums as a very notable dearth of female voices, and of the women I've tried to recruit for this forum, their reticence is universal: They do not want to share space with those whose views are so vile, especially if they must be cordial to them. There are simply better ways to spend their time.

    This concept of "excellence" as it is currently enforced is only superficial, and works to cover the inherent ugliness below. If this is to be the excellent forum it's purported to be, those roots must be pulled, because they've clearly made themselves at home to the detriment of the demographics of the site already.
    Have to say thanks to Nalano for pushing on this and fully agree with your points here. Bigots and trolls have long since learnt to couch their views, so a blank 'no rude words to others' policy is not only wholly ineffective, but can also help protect them, as we saw with your banning. I hope that was the rock bottom moment for RPS.

  15. #35
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    Ever since the rise of political correctness, bigotry has not disappeared but simply changed its modus of operation. It went from "slavery is cool" to "the Confederates did nothing wrong". In a way it attempts to direct the idea of tolerance against itself, often trying to paint itself as a victim of society. Ultimately the bigot is unmasked easily when pressed for he thinks his view of the world as self-evident and undeniable.
    As Karl Popper says in his great The Open Society and Its Enemies:
    Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. -In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
    Perhaps a bit drastic for an internet forum but the point still stands.
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  16. #36
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    if nazis are illegal, why not treat racists and sexists in equal measure?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sendmark View Post
    as we saw with your banning. I hope that was the rock bottom moment for RPS.
    That should happen anyway, not banning him is going against the "be nice to others" rule, the amount of insults he slings is insane.

    Suffice it to say I've been on forums longer than you.
    Look at that, he can't help himself.... The great and mighty one has spoken, BOW DOWN TO HIS RULE

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    That dosen't mean what you think it does, it is more leaning towards meaning the exact opposite.
    Last edited by tradaa; 11-09-2013 at 03:31 PM.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tradaa View Post
    That dosen't mean what you think it does, it is more leaning towards meaning the exact opposite.
    *looks at own postcount*

    *cries into hands*
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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  19. #39
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    On another forum I have 19,000 posts. Can I weep into your hands too?
    steam: sketch

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    Did you read what Nathan actually posted? Are you saying that, if in discussion, you take offense to someone's post, even though no offense was intended, perhaps they didn't get their message across correctly, English isn't their first language, their joke didn't carry across properly, they were mistaken but posting in good faith, you've misunderstood them etc... That they're a bigot because you have decreed and should be banned?
    I don't think "women simply aren't heroes" is a problem with a fucking language barrier. You act as if this is all just one big misunderstanding, but the only thing you're misunderstanding is that some people are actually shits.

    Also, I hate that I'm agreeing with an Anthile post because grr, but yes: You cannot be tolerant to intolerance.
    Last edited by Nalano; 11-09-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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