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  1. #101
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Ah. Right. Because when you drag out the same arguments against Kadayi or whoever and throw in cool words because you enjoy the way they sound or mean it's not pointless frippery.

    When I repeat old arguments (in closed threads) in response to your old arguments (in new, fresh threads) and rather than doing it as a one-liner do it as a concise summary of the whole of my opinion on the matter it's pointless frippery.

    Not sure what to make of that but I certainly don't like it.

    Excellence in my mind is giving people the benefit of the doubt, not being prissy.
    Then we can take into account worthy provocation or whatever. But objection to foul language is being prissy. Objection to verbal abuse is reasonable reaction. One person's verbal abuse is not another's, so there's that can of worms, too. But it's not a matter of being prissy.

    Like Gundato said, it's really fucking unpleasant to have an environment where people are comfortable verbally beating on you over and over. It's a little more complicated in discussions like this where opinions and personal stuff are more directly relevant, but when you're just talking about a game and what you thought about it while playing and someone feels the need to contribute nothing to the discussion other than make fun of you or call you a moron ... fuck that. That's a hostile environment we shouldn't support. I see it happen to a lot of posters, and I hate it; I don't care how cute and cleverly it's done and I don't even care so much about how explict the insult is. I wholeheartedly agree it's not just about how explicit the insult is or the exact words used ... but that's kind of like saying "guns can be used in non-lethal ways, and fists can kill people." It's true, but ...
    Last edited by gwathdring; 16-09-2013 at 08:40 PM.
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  2. #102
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Ah. Right. Because when you drag out the same arguments against Kadayi or whoever and throw in cool words because you enjoy the way they sound or mean it's not pointless frippery.

    When I repeat old arguments (in closed threads) in response to your old arguments (in new, fresh threads) and rather than doing it as a one-liner do it as a concise summary of the whole of my opinion on the matter it's pointless frippery.

    Not sure what to make of that but I certainly don't like it.
    I don't quite understand what you're on about now.
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  3. #103
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Ah. Right. Because when you drag out the same arguments against Kadayi or whoever and throw in cool words because you enjoy the way they sound or mean it's not pointless frippery.

    When I repeat old arguments (in closed threads) in response to your old arguments (in new, fresh threads) and rather than doing it as a one-liner do it as a concise summary of the whole of my opinion on the matter it's pointless frippery.

    Not sure what to make of that but I certainly don't like it.
    I don't know what the fuck you're on about. Kadayi and I have needled the shit out of each other but we're not hideously quarrelsome fucks dragging the forum into the gutter, and neither are you and I. The three of us are all capable of tedium but we're not gross misogynists.
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  4. #104
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Then we can take into account worthy provocation or whatever. But objection to foul language is being prissy. Objection to verbal abuse is reasonable reaction. One person's verbal abuse is not another's, so there's that can of worms, too. But it's not a matter of being prissy.
    I think that is a key point. The rest of that post confused me.

    "I fucking love this. This is even better than having sex with a goat in the back of a volkswagon while using bacon grease as lube" is quite obscene (funny enough: Not the most obscene thing me and my friends said at lunch today...), but isn't abusive.

    Saying "I hope you die of cancer" is not vulgar, but is very abusive.

    So use whatever language you guys want, just don't abuse people in the process. And if what you consider acceptable isn't considered acceptable by the people around you: Welcome to life. I sure as hell wouldn't say crap like that around my cousin's classmates (she is in middle school) and not expect repercussions.
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  5. #105
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    I don't know what the fuck you're on about. Kadayi and I have needled the shit out of each other but we're not hideously quarrelsome fucks dragging the forum into the gutter, and neither are you and I. The three of us are all capable of tedium but we're not gross misogynists.
    Whoops. I misread your post. I thought you were calling my post pointless dancing-about becasue we've already had this discussion and it's old-hat.

    Based on your reaction I'm assuming you meant "Oh great, so according to the hivemind we should have to play dress up and make our insults look prettier than they really are and that'll solve things" instead?

    If so, the rest of my post applies and sorry for the mis-read. :P
    Last edited by gwathdring; 16-09-2013 at 08:47 PM.
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    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  6. #106
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Like Gundato said, it's really fucking unpleasant to have an environment where people are comfortable verbally beating on you over and over.
    Then Gundato shouldn't say things like how the mother of Trayvon Martin was pursuing the court case just because she wanted a book deal, because that's offensive as fuck.
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  7. #107
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Then Gundato shouldn't say things like how the mother of Trayvon Martin was pursuing the court case just because she wanted a book deal, because that's offensive as fuck.
    I don't want to bother gathering terribly much context here, and with what I've got it seems offensive and insensitive as fuck. Christ, do you keep files on all of us?

    Not sure how it changes the argument made, though. Heck, I had my back covered on this:

    It's a little more complicated in discussions like this where opinions and personal stuff are more directly relevant, but when you're just talking about a game and what you thought about it while playing
    Last edited by gwathdring; 16-09-2013 at 09:30 PM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  8. #108
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Based on your reaction I'm assuming you meant "Oh great, so according to the hivemind we should have to play dress up and make our insults look prettier than they really are and that'll solve things" instead?

    If so, the rest of my post applies and sorry for the mis-read. :P
    It's fine, and yes that is my complaint.

    I quite like Nalano but the ability to call each other fucks isn't that important to me. I just don't care. I really don't. As I've said in other forums, if you feel it necessary you can impugn my character as much as you want; I'm quite resilient to photons. The strongest thing I can say in regards to insult is that I think allowing people to speak their minds makes hiding harder for concern trolls and other purveyors of guarded grossness.

    Two issues are clearly muxed here: misogyny/hatefulness and insult/invective. I think the former is more specific and more problematic, and discussing and combating it seems more central to RPS' ethos. Given that, a more pressing concern than insult-monitoring is getting a system set up whereby decent moderators can shitcan turds on the quick.

    And not to be pedantic, but just to illustrate as clearly as possible what I mean by "prissy":

    "having or showing the annoying attitude of people who care too much about dressing and behaving properly and who are easily upset by other people's behavior, language, etc"

    Call me a lackadaisical multiculturalist, but again, I just don't care about insult. If it's not a grossly inegalitarian or ridiculously totalitarian idea I can't generally be bothered with offense. I'd rather tangle over my differences with people and end up celebrating them than round all the edges off to a monotonous hum of pleasantry. I used the word "whitebread" in another thread on purpose: I was raised in boring bland white Middle America and this excellence stuff reeks of the same treacle.

    I'll be fine if excellency-aspiration is strictly enforced; I'm not a big insult-flinger. I just think it's silly.
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  9. #109
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Then Gundato shouldn't say things like how the mother of Trayvon Martin was pursuing the court case just because she wanted a book deal, because that's offensive as fuck.
    Then it is a good thing I never said that, but thanks for randomly launching a personal attack anyway.

    What I did say
    Also: While I REALLY don't want to believe it, I got a strong vibe of Martin's family seeing an excuse to profit/be famous for this from the interviews and coverage.


    But I do apologize if you are so sensitive that my gut feeling of "This is making me uncomfortable" made you uncomfortable. In the future, I will realize that you apparently can only exist on a message board where everyone believes the exact same thing as you and that any divergence from your own thought patterns forces you to vilify people and harass them for things they never did.
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  10. #110
    Network Hub Jambe's Avatar
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    Fuck me, that was incredible; I mention honesty making it hard for concern trolling to hide and then what happens? QED in four minutes flat.
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  11. #111
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    Gundato, let me break this down for you:

    "What I REALLY don't want to believe it," = I'm not racist but

    "I got a strong vibe of" = I heard from some guy

    "Martin's family seeing an excuse to profit/be famous for this" = they are trading on their son's wrongful death for fame and fortune.

    Not really any way to interpret "profit" in a way that isn't terribly fucking offensive.
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  12. #112
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Gundato, let me break this down for you:

    "What I REALLY don't want to believe it," = I'm not racist but

    "I got a strong vibe of" = I heard from some guy

    "Martin's family seeing an excuse to profit/be famous for this" = they are trading on their son's wrongful death for fame and fortune.

    Not really any way to interpret "profit" in a way that isn't terribly fucking offensive.
    Well, at least you are at the "character assassination" point of things. Good to know that no matter what I post, you'll have your own interpretation.

    And you are right. It is pretty rude. It is also a vibe I got (as in, "a feeling" based on having watched other similar events in the news). Again, I apologize if what I perceive and interpret from the facts available offends you, but I would think that someone so hellbent on not having to be polite or watch what you say would understand.

    But you are right, it is pretty rude. It isn't what you are saying (that is all character assassination because you clearly don't have an argument anymore), but it is rude. Which is why I once more bring up: There is a difference between being obscene (what you claim to want to do) and being abusive and attacking other forumers for whatever pleasure you get out of it (what you are often perceived as doing). And this really isn't helping your case. If Martin's family were here, I would delete that in a heartbeat as I really don't want that to be the case. But I think it is safe to discuss around here.

    Or is this just an attempt to get someone you dislike banned by pretending that was a racially motivated statement, since you finally found what you can use to get rid of the people you don't like (because clearly harassment and trolling aren't enough for more than a two week ban)? Because it wasn't (I can cite lots of Little Lost WHite Girls who I got the strong vibe of the family not giving a fuck about after the case and just using as an excuse to continue their claim to fame. Or I can cite the parents of the kid they locked in the attic and started a manhunt for. Pretty sure that kid was white). I honestly have no idea what you are doing other than trying to pick a fight.
    Last edited by gundato; 16-09-2013 at 10:48 PM.
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  13. #113
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    I'll be fine if excellency-aspiration is strictly enforced; I'm not a big insult-flinger. I just think it's silly.
    Point taken, but as I said it's not so much the insults that bother me as an a bullying or belligerent attitude with or without explicit insult. Getting too fiddly with the difference between "you're a stupid shit" and "that's stupid shit" and failing to see when such things are said but enough is said around them to engender good-faith discussion that it doesn't matter ... that's a problem. I'm with you there. That's more a misunderstanding of "be excellent" than a proof that "be excellent" is mindless dress-up, though.

    We should be socialized well enough to know the difference between "don't be a dick" and "pay lip service to not being a dick." It's a problem that mods were saying precisely that second one very recently. But. My continuing soap-box is that it's not just bigoted undesirables and their apologists who screw up the whole "don't be a dick" thing one way or the other. I don't want us to say that having a thick skin is a requirement for being here (that's a frighteningly familiar argument, after all), and I don't want us to say that just because it doesn't ruin someone's week or day it's acceptable behavior.
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  14. #114
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    I don't think draping false genteelness over the forums is worthwhile, but then I don't give a fuck whether people engage in ad hominem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jambe View Post
    Politeness-frippery being the order of the day is clear.I'm familiar with that tired refrain and I disagree just as tiredly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    I'm aggressive with pretty much everybody, but the actual "fuck you, fuck you and fuck you" comments are reserved primarily for exactly the sort of racist, sexist bullshit that should be universally censured.
    The rules aren't optional. In fact the vast majority of posters manage to adhere to them with with little or no effort, so I must admit I'm puzzled as to why either of you two think that they're not applicable to you as well. I mean is it really so hard to temper yourself in truth? Or is this some kind of 'merica thing? Because tbh, quite a few people don't get why its beyond you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    Gundato, let me break this down for you:

    "What I REALLY don't want to believe it," = I'm not racist but

    "I got a strong vibe of" = I heard from some guy

    "Martin's family seeing an excuse to profit/be famous for this" = they are trading on their son's wrongful death for fame and fortune.

    Not really any way to interpret "profit" in a way that isn't terribly fucking offensive.
    Please, stop with the second guessing, and dragging your postage stamps of grievance from other threads in here.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 17-09-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    The rules aren't optional.
    Devil's advocate a bit, but if no one is arsed to enforce them, they sort of are.

  16. #116
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    Following on from the post above........ mccann

  17. #117
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Devil's advocate a bit, but if no one is arsed to enforce them, they sort of are.
    And it doesn't help that when they finally are enforced, recently the whole thread has had to leave off without exception.
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    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  18. #118
    Administrator Rossignol's Avatar
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    Getting tired of reading this bickering, Gentlemen. If it continues then permanent bans will ensue.

    Regarding the topic it hand: if something gets moderated or someone gets banned, the reason is simple - it is not excellent.

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