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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The very point of being here is finding the solution, not reiterating the status quo.
    I'm just pointing out to MoL that it's not 'freeze peach' (I seriously hate that meme) but it's against the rule (for there is only one). It doesn't mean people are complicit with what they're saying or concerned that they should have a voice.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  2. #22
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sketch's Avatar
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    Regarding prolific posters that is very much how I see the forum as it is. The environment certainly isn't one that nurtures new users.
    steam: sketch

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    The very point of being here is finding the solution, not reiterating the status quo.

    I want them to own and recant their offensive statements, not have their posts be whitewashed. I also don't want a republic of prolific posters to rule the roost: This is everybody's game, and everybody's responsibility.
    The white out isn't the end. Once an actual moderator comes they could still be warned or banned or w/e would normally happen. Its just that in the time in between the post and the moderator response innocent people wouldn't be subjected to awfulness, unless they chose to read it.

    And the reason for the post count or approval process for being able to white out is because of potential trolling.

    There are a lot of other features that interact with it but they are not necessarily needed at RPS. Optional comment nesting to handle derails, basically normal forums but you can choose to have your comment nested. This removes the need for spoilering derails posts which is common on some forums.

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    And the reason for the post count or approval process for being able to white out is because of potential trolling.
    Which is good in some respects. But these forums have a bit of an old-boys-club vibe already. Attaching power to that rather than to official moderator status or similar could strengthen that vibe which wouldn't necessarily be a good thing even if it fixed some of our problems. Ultimately we want more people comfortable posting here; there's not much point in making this place safer for women if we accidentally make it feel more generically stand-off-ish in the process.

    It could work, but ...
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    I did not want the thread started during this time, MoLAoS, for a variety of reasons, among them that this is not primetime for this forum. As it stands, the discussion is being dominated by the same three people.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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    "His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." - Woody Allen

  6. #26
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    Hence why I prefer optional nesting, allows off topic or specific posters to avoid thread domination. I'll stop posting for a week and see what happens. Aside from advocating for experimental conversation management features I probably don't have much of value to contribute anyways.

  7. #27
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoLAoS View Post
    allows off topic or Soldant to avoid thread domination.
    Fixed that for you. If you're going to call me out on it, at least put my name in there.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Fixed that for you. If you're going to call me out on it, at least put my name in there.
    He meant anyone, I'm pretty sure. For example himself or me or Nalano or anyone who's pretty much always pretty heavy into these discussions and wants to continue being involved without smothering things. It's nice for both new folks who are easily pushed out by virtue of only having a few posts to share on the matter and for old-hands who don't want to have to bugger off entirely to avoid getting in the way with longer discussion.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 14-09-2013 at 06:24 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  9. #29
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    It would certainly be interesting to know the demographics of the RPS users. I would imagine there are quite a few more women than one might think, vising RPS like Richard Francis Burton would.
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    to wound the autumnal city.

  10. #30
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    I come to the forum everyday, to have a nose but I rarely post. PC gaming forums are a pretty intimidating place to post from past experience(the old PC Gamer forum was a viperous snake pit) even for a bloke like myself let alone a woman. I had to build myself up for this post because its such a touchy subject. Anyway the RPS forum is probably the best I'v seen in terms of new people posting and such but theres always the element of shall we say backlash but thats always going to happen on a forum.

    As Sketch said above most forum posts are dominated by the regular posters and its hard for a newcommer/woman/Jeff from next door to get involved with said forum when its such a close knit group that post all the time. Then again if we didn't have the regulars posting then there wouldn't be much discussion. Its finding that thin line between.

    My views is that PC gaming is still quite a male dominated hobby even if that isn't the reality. It must be hard for a woman who is serious about their hobby to feel welcomed by the community when its male dominated, especially on a forum. I have met a couple of women while playing games online and they have given the best conversations I'v had with anybody. I would welcome more woman on the forum.

    As for any solutions? I'm racking my brains but I don't have any real answers. Just be more nice? but that just sounds cheesy and wouldn't solve a thing.

  11. #31
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    Why Are There So Few Women On RPS?
    Because Most Men Are Fucking Dreadful.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nalano View Post
    That is the last time I PM you for advice, MoLAoS.

    Now that you've jumped the gun, maybe I can make a more coherent argument.

    There have never been more than three concurrent female posters on the RPS forum. This is despite the fact that the demographics of video gamers almost exactly matches general demographics.
    You are talking about the demographic for ALL PC games. This is RPS. AAA and indie games are the sort that get covered here. The sort of hardcore games that guys play. You know this but whether by reason of intellectual dishonesty or lack of intellect you elect to construe the preconceived (yes, ironic, i know) notion in your head. So now there's an issue and here is Mr. Nalano, ringmaster and man of the house here to the rescue, in a civilized and progressive manner, am i right? How morally superior you are!

    Go occupy wall street or something, why are you here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    So, here's my take on it...

    2) Women who aren't interested in putting up with the shit. Not just on RPS but across every public server, on every game, wherever 'interaction with the community' (read: belittling roulette, where sometimes people just shit on you for no reason (or rather, the same reasons every time: women can't play videogames. shouldn't you be in the kitchen? Women are casuals. Go make me a sandwich. I'm not playing with a girl. Go make me a sandwich. Who let the girl play? How do you reach the keyboard from the kitchen? Votekick. (I am, to nest the brackets further, actually filtering the shit we get here))) is unavoidable.
    Thanks, but guys get insults hurled at them - from guys by the way - all the time. It's anonymity you see, it does that. The proper response is to deal with it. By bitching back at them. Not by mistakenly interpreting the entire situation as demonstrative of a socio-political one and using that as ammunition to fuel your agenda.

    [quote]We play games like L4D2 or TF2 or whatever else you care to mention (I used to be partial to Q3A back in ye olde days), but generally it's private games, or when we go on public servers, usually mute the mic. Often, we stick to chatting about upcoming releases and whatnot with our friends, who we've already vetted aren't assholes - heaven forfend you do it on twitter, or tumblr, or whatever, because that's basically an open invitation for a moron to wander in and froth at the mouth about how we're over-reacting (or, speaking.)

    We eyeroll at trailers and console ourselves that at least [female character of choice] isn't wearing heels and a cheesewire thong, even if most of her dialogue is awful. We talk about missed opportunities, wasted story arcs and how it really sucked to grind a dungeon for hours in warcraft only to find the cool armour that on a male is a badass plate chestpiece, and on our character, magically transmutes into a boob tube with an exposed belly, or, you know, how it's super cool how GW2 actually has openly gay characters, but 90% of the armour you can get as a female character is just obnoxious fanservice (but at least male mesmers look just as ridiculous.)

    This is all very good and very reasonable. When people talk about concepts like empowerment and equality it all makes a good deal of sense and no reasonable person would dispute that. And it's perfectly reasonable as well to roll your eyes as fanservice. But you have surely misrepresented your real position. What you have really done is you have gone on an angry tirade about fanservice/revealing depictions and how its inclusion is inherently sexist. Not only that, you have accused the entire gaming industry of being sexist because of the paucity of female protagonists as well. How fucking ridiculous does that sound? Evidently, not very ridiculous to you, but for the ordinary reasonable person, utterly absurd. You will get plenty of angry responses. Some with sexist connotations. But probably because you've pissed off a good deal of people, and they want to get back at you. What are the most obvious insults to hurl at a guy? Mom's a whore/slut/retardation/size of dick. What's the most obvious insult to throw at a feminist? Sexist insults. *shrug*

    And the reason we don't do this on RPS* or any other forums is because frankly, we could do without the stampede of mansplaining apologists telling us how our opinions don't count and - he asked his girlfriend - she wouldn't play these games if she couldn't make an overly made up and implausibly dressed sexy warrior princess anyway. See, the problem isn't just the arseholes. And make no mistake, they are the problem. It's the handwringing people who make excuses for why our culture is what it is, and how it's silly to try and change it, and how it's always been like this and boys will be boys and it's just good business and demographics and I could go on.
    You and your lesbian/feminist friends are not even remotely - remotely - representative of the female perspective. I'm sorry but it's true. What you find offense in - they are not offended by. Have you not noticed that the entire feminism movement used to be associated with being lesbian? Has it perhaps ever occurred to you that lesbians and a few oddballs aside, you and your group aren't representative of women at all? When somebody claims that girls by and large don't play hardcore/violent games, it is not a fucking insult, it is a statement of fact supported by observation. Sure there are girls that do. Not lesbians/feminists, i mean normal hetrosexual girls who do. And these girls may desire seeing more female representation and playing as a female protagonist. And once again, this is perfectly acceptable and hardly anybody would even be against that. But these women who play games sure as hell don't start screeching that sexism, conscious or subconscious, is the real reason why the are deprived of the characters and games they want to play.

    Venture out of your angry little circle and meet other people and stop being so goddamned pissed off at everything and seeing - construing - enmity in everyone. You'll be a much happier person.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post
    Have you not noticed that the entire feminism movement used to be associated with being lesbian?
    Wait, what?

    Oh come on guys, you accuse me of ruining this thread but then you get a post like this. I'm at best a minor disruption.
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamster View Post

    snipped for brevity

    Venture out of your angry little circle and meet other people and stop being so goddamned pissed off at everything and seeing - construing - enmity in everyone. You'll be a much happier person.


    It's like you don't even notice how precisely you just proved my entire point. Like, word for word.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Misogynists arguing with white knights over hypothetical females. Don't go changing guys.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Misogynists arguing with white knights over hypothetical females. Don't go changing guys.
    Oh, please, no, white knights? Really? Why is it that fedora wearing mouthbreathing assholes invented this term and suddenly everyone went along with it? Best not side with feminists, guys! Wouldn't want to be a white knight, would you? Gross.

    Also, love that I'm invisible. Hearts! <3<3<3<3

  17. #37
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I didn't say only. But sometimes a naming convention is accurate, no matter it's origin.
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
    http://playingitwrong.wordpress.com/

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Alternatively, shouting down the bigots breaks the 'be excellent' rule?
    Does it?

    To the more general question, honestly I think the goal of "getting more women on RPS" and the goal of "making RPS and gaming a friendlier field for women" are two different goals and kinda exclusive of each other.

    RPS as a blog, and the forums have sort of followed, has set itself up as campaigners for fairness and equality and stuff for women in gaming. They want to make PC gaming more welcoming to women on a whole and that's great, and I applaud it. In the long term, if it works, this will get more women visiting RPS.

    But in the short term.

    A woman that visits RPS, the majority of the time, is not looking to read about sexism in games. All those articles are very much targeted exclusively at men. Women don't need it explained to them dis-embodied torsos and boob armour are sexist. They're already quite aware. If they're visiting RPS, they are there to read about games. They probably don't want to be reminded every other day that they're an oddity and this is mainly a bloke's thing, and of course the feminism posts then attract more of the absolutely worst misogynistic commenters looking for a fight, that then sometimes find their way to the forums.

    So you want more women on RPS? Shut up about women in gaming and focus on the games. If you write a 3000 word article on some new RPG, and spend 20 words mentioning the boob armour, you fill the comments thread with morons and the discussion about the game gets sidelined. Just don't mention that stuff, and instantly delete anyone bringing up even vaguely misogynistic stuff in the comments. That's how you get more women visitors. You take gender out of it entirely.

    Of course, if you do that then you don't get anywhere near tackling all the sexism and misogyny in the medium. So I wouldn't want RPS to actually do that. But at some point people need to have the realisation that tackling this stuff head on is probably going to put off the majority of women that just want to read about games. Even though they might thank you for it afterwards.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    I didn't say only. But sometimes a naming convention is accurate, no matter it's origin.
    This is not one of those circumstances. White knight is exclusively men who don't sign up to the MRA alpha male pick up artist bullshit. What a terrible thing to be.

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    I didn't say only. But sometimes a naming convention is accurate, no matter it's origin.

    Edit: I'm (probably) a feminist*, but shouting how men are terrible because theoretically more females would be here if they weren't? How would you describe that, I don't consider that feminist.

    *Depending on where the goal posts are
    I'm failing to writing a blog, specifically about playing games the wrong way
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