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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Firstly, I think this is a massive overreaction simply because it's EA/Origin. I'm willing to bet that a lot of software comes with similar terms in the EULA, including software that rabid fanboys will defend to the death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    And if only examples of industry retardation and consumer apathy in the face of the continued erosion of their rights didn't litter the ground like leaves in autumn I might have more faith in the eternal and infinite omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence of the Lords our God EA, Valve, et al.
    Nobody is really saying that apathy is the right mindset, but trying to screw around with customers in the gaming industry (particularly the PC) is playing with fire. PC gamers are pretty notorious for bitching about anything that slightly annoys them and have a legion of PC-centric media sites like RPS to back them up. Even then, should EA start to use Origin in a legally questionable manner ("invading privacy" for example) the backlash would be massive, and might even result in the EULA going under legal scrutiny. EULAs aren't well tested in the legal environment (probably because there hasn't been a need to, hence there's a reasonably good history of goodwill) thus to claim that this is a horrific turn of events and EA et. al. are going to come and infest our minds is probably going a bit too far.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    And if only examples of industry retardation and consumer apathy in the face of the continued erosion of their rights didn't litter the ground like leaves in autumn I might have more faith in the eternal and infinite omnipotence, omniscience and benevolence of the Lords our God EA, Valve, et al.
    I'm kind of with Unaco on this one. If companies excessively abuse those rights, then people will stop using them. The issue occurs when you're the one guy who gets his Steam account banned for some hacking he didn't do and no-one believes you and you're stuck. It probably won't affect you, but it might.

    I think this is a far bigger problem though than just EA/Steam. This comes down to privacy in general in the information age (like this whole game about Facebook getting mobile numbers from phones, even though they're not doing anything with them). For industry, the EULA is always written to give companies the most rights they can possibly take without being illegal. The way to stop this is make more stuff illegal. Push along those lines for a unified legal privacy code and so on.

    The law moves slowly. It doesn't really handle a lot of modern, technological problems. So yes, for now we're just left having to trust these companies.

  3. #23
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    I have to wonder what some of you people are doing on your computers. If Origin was spying on me last night, they would have learned that I played BFBC2 for the first time in several months. If they were spying on me the day before that, they would have learned I enjoy playing L4D2 with friends, and that I visited gamesradar.com and RPS. The day before that, they might have caught me enjoying Just Cause 2.

    Do I think this data collection is necessary? No. Do I care? No. The people who get worked up over this are the sames ones who lose their shit every time a story surfaces about the government being able to scan license plates around their city, or track their location by their cell phone. Who fucking cares?

  4. #24
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    So where's the outrage over the fact that publishers are now shipping retail games with Steamworks in what amounts to an fourfold version of EA's Project $10 in the console market? Oh right, there isn't any.

    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    For industry, the EULA is always written to give companies the most rights they can possibly take without being illegal. The way to stop this is make more stuff illegal. Push along those lines for a unified legal privacy code and so on.
    Except that the trend lines are all moving in the opposite direction. Corporate money buys influence (see: DMCA, Protect IP acts) and the Government itself has little interest in opposing such trends. Google CEO Eric Schmidt himself hinted at the alliance between Corporate and Government interests in these and related matters last year:

    "In a world of asynchronous threats, it is too dangerous for there not to be some way to identify you. We need a [verified] name service for people. Governments will demand it."
    Last edited by Rii; 24-08-2011 at 01:38 PM.

  5. #25
    Lesser Hivemind Node TillEulenspiegel's Avatar
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    Eric Schmidt is gone now, thank god. I trust Larry & Sergey a tiny bit more.

    Really, you don't have to accept being fucked. There's nothing that requires companies to do this, and nothing that requires you to give them money. Support less evil options.

  6. #26
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Rii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TillEulenspiegel View Post
    Really, you don't have to accept being fucked. There's nothing that requires companies to do this, and nothing that requires you to give them money. Support less evil options.
    Right: like Bittorrent. It's just a pity as occasionally one feels like parting with money in exchange for a hassle-free experience accompanied by that musky scent of authenticity in the form of a manual or whatever. Alas the industry isn't interested in that sort of agreeable exchange, on account of it being - as I may have mentioned previously - stupid.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Xian View Post

    Only difference is the opt-out for "Personally identifiable information". Valve even reserves the right to share this personally identifiable information with 3rd parties should you allow them to collect it.

    But hey, it's Steam! They have those awesome sales so nobody
    But isn't that a really big difference? I don't know the details, but I'm pretty sure steam asked me about that stuff at one point. The way EA is doing does bother, but if they let me opt out of taking private info I'd be fine.

    Also, @ the people saying this was already in the EULA for their games. That maybe true but the game can't actualy collect that information right? So that doesn't really matter. If EA had a clause saying they could punch me through my computer screen, I would probably agree because I know that is impossible. I
    Last edited by Land Squid; 24-08-2011 at 01:51 PM. Reason: Missed out a word

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    Except that the trend lines are all moving in the opposite direction. Corporate money buys influence (see: DMCA, Protect IP acts) and the Government itself has little interest in opposing such trends. Google CEO Eric Schmidt himself hinted at the alliance between Corporate and Government interests in these and related matters last year:
    Can't speak for other countries, but in the UK the adoption of the European Convention on Human Rights hugely increased our right to privacy, the controls the government are suggesting that internet users should have over something as generally benign as cookies (essentially: making them opt in) border on the ridiculous and UK consumer law has always hugely favoured the consumer.

  9. #29
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    Heres a shock.

    EULA isn't above the law! It has to remain with the law. Some people think they are throwing away their rights, that's complete crap.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rossi View Post
    Heres a shock.

    EULA isn't above the law! It has to remain with the law. Some people think they are throwing away their rights, that's complete crap.
    If EA did go through with what is outlined in the EULA and justified it on the basis of what was in the EULA, what can you do as a consumer to stop them? Would have to go to court or something like that?

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Land Squid View Post
    If EA did go through with what is outlined in the EULA and justified it on the basis of what was in the EULA, what can you do as a consumer to stop them? Would have to go to court or something like that?
    Yes. But note that if it *wasn't* in the EULA, and they did it anyway, you'd still have to go to court to stop them.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Yes. But note that if it *wasn't* in the EULA, and they did it anyway, you'd still have to go to court to stop them.
    Good point, but I think they are more likely to through with it if they have a semi-justification like an EULA. And I would rather just not buy Battlefield 3 (and possibly tell them why) than go through legal processes I can't afford.

    Edit

    (ie. by putting in their EULA they are telling people they might have intentions of going through with it. I can react to that. I can't react to people who haven't declared their intentions)
    Last edited by Land Squid; 24-08-2011 at 05:51 PM.

  13. #33
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Nalano's Avatar
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    It's not "industry retardation and customer apathy" so much as it's a clear-cut case of an one-sided bargaining position. Individually, we have no power over this multi-billion dollar corporation, so they can put all manner of stipulations into these contracts.

    We should not have to accept this imbalance of power. Period.
    Nalano H. Wildmoon
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  14. #34
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    Can someone link to the breakdown of packets being sent from your pc by origin?

    Im going to guess in advance that no one will be able to provide the proof they need and all of this is based on the EULA/TOC

    I liked it better when FADS were contained to your local area.
    Last edited by psyk; 24-08-2011 at 07:12 PM.

  15. #35
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyk View Post
    Can someone link to the breakdown of packets being sent from your pc by origin?

    Im going to guess in advance that no one will be able to provide the proof they need and all of this is based on the EULA/TOC
    I don't think they can, because EA aren't doing it (yet). To me... They've just given themselves the cover so if, in the future, through fault more likely than design, they do something that involves this sort of thing.

    I did come across a breakdown of what they would want to take or they will be taking, which was Operating System, IP Address, peripheral hardware, and application usage. There are legitimate uses for all of these things, and they're the sorts of things I would be happy to tell a Steam/Origin style service. All of the sinister uses that people seem to be objecting to are 'worst possible scenarios'... and if we start objecting to that, we should be objecting to a great many things as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  16. #36
    Network Hub Megagun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by psyk View Post
    Can someone link to the breakdown of packets being sent from your pc by origin?
    I tried, but it's all encrypted traffic, and my Wireshark-fu is horrible.
    *Grumbles something about Wireshark still having more or less exactly the same GUI as they had when it was still called Ethereal*

  17. #37

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