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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by karaquazian View Post
    We have PAL over here
    It's NTSC in America
    That is not what the post said. The post said "your TVs and PC Monitors are the same". Again, not true AFAIK for many reasons. Such as overscan, refresh rate, pixel mapping (true or other) etc.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prolar Bear View Post
    I want the SteamBox to be called the GabeCube.
    I think you mean GabeSphere!

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    They usually still have high latency in gaming mode.
    I've been using an HDTV for my primary monitor for years now and the latency has never had a negative impact on my gaming. And that's with running it in cinema mode and using a wireless mouse and keyboard. 90% of the gaming populace doesn't give two shits about monitor latency.

  4. #44
    Lesser Hivemind Node Velko's Avatar
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    I'm tired of Boxes. Make it a tetrahedron and then we'll talk.

  5. #45
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    3D box are so 90's.



    Make it 4D!.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    I've been using an HDTV for my primary monitor for years now and the latency has never had a negative impact on my gaming. And that's with running it in cinema mode and using a wireless mouse and keyboard. 90% of the gaming populace doesn't give two shits about monitor latency.
    Low Input latency (when reasonable, not the hilarity that was Killzone 3's multiplayer), is right up there with "being an audiophile and needing flac format and super high definition, noise canceling, headphones". And it is comparable to the "I need ultra super high FPS. 60 isn't good enough for me!"

    Yes, there are MANY rational arguments for why it is good and I don't think anyone would disagree that less input latency/higher audio quality/higher FPS is EVER bad (well, the last one actually DOES have an argument, with fighting games, but let's ignore that :p).

    But they all have diminishing returns, and once you reach a threshold, you just won't really notice the improvements. And then you have to consider the source material: If you do nothing but listen to rap music and the like, you won't really notice the beautiful range your speakers can give you. And if you haven't been listening to classical music your entire life (and, probably playing it), you probably won't even notice the difference when you have a true "work of art" playing.

    Same with input latency. Most players are MUCH more likely to die due to sheer stupidity than being a fraction of a second faster than their opponent. And even if it DOES boil down to that: Odds are they have a comparable setup and a comparable amount of input lag anyway.


    All that being said: it IS important to research your TV and make sure that, in Game Mode, it is at least comparable to a monitor.
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  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    I've been using an HDTV for my primary monitor for years now and the latency has never had a negative impact on my gaming. And that's with running it in cinema mode and using a wireless mouse and keyboard. 90% of the gaming populace doesn't give two shits about monitor latency.
    Some people DO give a shit though.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Low Input latency (when reasonable, not the hilarity that was Killzone 3's multiplayer), is right up there with "being an audiophile and needing flac format and super high definition, noise canceling, headphones". And it is comparable to the "I need ultra super high FPS. 60 isn't good enough for me!"
    It's comparable to an "audiophile" wanting something better than Realtek ALC101 (AC '97).

  9. #49
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    Why can't hip hop be art. Hip hop is like any other genre of music, you have rock that's fantastic, you have shite like motley crue. Same with hip hop, same with jazz, same with dance music. You have quality hip hop made with love like PE, Jurassic 5, mos def, de la soul etc..

    There are 2 types of music, stuff made with soul and shite made for hard cash.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karaquazian View Post
    Why can't hip hop be art. Hip hop is like any other genre of music, you have rock that's fantastic, you have shite like motley crue. Same with hip hop, same with jazz, same with dance music. You have quality hip hop made with love like PE, Jurassic 5, mos def, de la soul etc..

    There are 2 types of music, stuff made with soul and shite made for hard cash.
    I don't disagree that rap and hip hop and the like can be good. My main point is that you tend to not get the same range that classical music gives (yes, there are exceptions. For the purpose of this I don't care because, if it was the norm, they would not be exceptions).


    Also, I have heard some pretty damned shitty stuff made by people who believe that "true art can't be for profit", so I don't think your classification system works.
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  11. #51
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And it is comparable to the "I need ultra super high FPS. 60 isn't good enough for me!"
    I don't know about you, but I can definitely tell the difference between 60FPS and 120FPS, just as I can tell the difference between my monitor refreshing at 60hz or 120hz. I usually play with Vsync so a drop from 60fps to 30fps is noticeable. Just because 30FPS was the target for consoles it doesn't mean that it's desirable or all that you'll ever need. I don't know why people would want to shun smoother gameplay.

    Do I need over 60FPS to play? No. But for some people the difference might be significant enough that they find 60FPS distracting, just the same as I find 30fps distracting.
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  12. #52
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I don't know about you, but I can definitely tell the difference between 60FPS and 120FPS, just as I can tell the difference between my monitor refreshing at 60hz or 120hz. I usually play with Vsync so a drop from 60fps to 30fps is noticeable. Just because 30FPS was the target for consoles it doesn't mean that it's desirable or all that you'll ever need. I don't know why people would want to shun smoother gameplay.

    Do I need over 60FPS to play? No. But for some people the difference might be significant enough that they find 60FPS distracting, just the same as I find 30fps distracting.
    I can easily tell the difference between 30, 60 and 120 FPS, but it doesn't bother me. Input lag bothers me a lot, though. I can not only easily pick out relatively small lag but it's frustrating as hell. When I hook my laptop up to a TV ... if it doesn't have a high-refresh "gaming" mode, I start finding it hard to play. Not because I can't adapt to the lag, but because I'm used to playing without that much lag so my skills in any particular game depend on being used to lower latency. Even if I did adapt to the lag by playing mostly on a TV, I'd run into a problem of cognitive dissonance. I can get used to going through the motions with high input lag and get good at it, but something feels off. It's not as enjoyable. My brain can tell that things aren't syncing up right even if I trick it into understanding exactly how to maneuver anyway. It's really uncomfortable feeling for me.

    I've gradually gotten used to a wireless mouse and keyboard, but for some games I have to use my built-in laptop keyboard--Trackmania and Super Hexagon for example. Otherwise it just feels too floaty. I'm ok with floaty in some games, like TF2 where I've even played with my laptop touchpad despite how restrictive and awkward it was. I just don't care as much about having a consistent and precise feeling in TF2--it's not why I'm playing. But Trackmania? I need tight controls and even a good wireless keyboard doesn't always feel tight enough--let alone when hooked up to an HDTV with too low a refresh rate to sync properly with my PC.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 23-09-2013 at 01:47 AM.
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  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    The extra lag on a TV can be MUCH, MUCH worse than the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz. At worst, a 60 Hz screen instead of a 120 Hz screen takes you from a frame time of 8.33 ms to 16.67 ms, adding 8.33 ms. TVs typically add 10-40 ms compared to a good gaming monitor. In some cases even more than that.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    The extra lag on a TV can be MUCH, MUCH worse than the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz. At worst, a 60 Hz screen instead of a 120 Hz screen takes you from a frame time of 8.33 ms to 16.67 ms, adding 8.33 ms. TVs typically add 10-40 ms compared to a good gaming monitor. In some cases even more than that.
    And even with a high-refresh mode, some of that can't be corrected for. Most TVs just aren't designed with latency in mind. Who cares if your DVD player input is ahead of the TV display, as long as it lags by a consistent amount?
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    The extra lag on a TV can be MUCH, MUCH worse than the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz. At worst, a 60 Hz screen instead of a 120 Hz screen takes you from a frame time of 8.33 ms to 16.67 ms, adding 8.33 ms. TVs typically add 10-40 ms compared to a good gaming monitor. In some cases even more than that.
    Oh no! 8 and a bit THOUSANDTHS OF A SECOND added in lag! How could anybody possibly survive playing a game like that?!

  16. #56
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    The average visual-stimulus-to-physical-response time is around .2 seconds. Very rough as there's substantial variance. Olympic qualifying sprinters can get this down much closer to 100 ms. It's quite feasible that experienced gamers making fine-motor movements could get down to 100 ms without being the gaming equivalent of Olympians.

    That means that the difference between 60 Hz and 120 Hz is still less than a 10% difference in your response. Being more rigorous we're concerned more with off-sets and synchronization of repetitive cognitive tasks and/or in-game tasks--so let's halve that to 5% or less to deal with it from a perspective of mismatched responses rather than sheer delay.

    The trouble is that this is one of many pieces of the delay pie and our visual system has some bugs/features that allow it to detect changes too subtle or quick for us to react to properly especially if we've trained our eyes to a particular task. Further, if your display has a delay of 20 or 40 ms ... that's quickly becoming a sizable percent of your response time and thus a more noticeable difference.

    The way this sort of tiny but statistically significant difference tends to manifest is not so much "shit, I can see the mouse-pointer lagging behind where I want it to be," but more as a subtle disconnect. Motions you've learned well and can perform consistently with good timing start working less consistently, the controls feel "floatier" than normal. And sometimes you can just tell even if it's a very small difference too fast for you to adjust your behavior.

    I'm sure many gamers have the experience of noticing something too late to get their fingers to react properly, but before their fingers have completely performed (or even properly started) the initial reaction. Just becasue you can't react to it fast enough doesn't mean you can't notice it and doesn't mean it can't screw you up. On top of that, lighting has a huge impact on our ability to perceive at particular rates. A light image on a dark background can be picked out up at flashing speeds up to and above 120 fps--that is, an image that only shows up for about 8 ms or less. It's certainly not weird to find these differences inconsequential either because of how you consciously process these sorts of fine-motor reaction experiences or because of the physical/mental variances in your personal reactivity. But it's not weird for differences this small to affect people either.

    Of course, being condescending about it makes for productive discussion too I guess.
    Last edited by gwathdring; 23-09-2013 at 09:18 AM.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    Oh no! 8 and a bit THOUSANDTHS OF A SECOND added in lag! How could anybody possibly survive playing a game like that?!
    Do you know how the visual system and our nervous system (muscles etc) respond? Care to elaborate? Or have you not heard of the speech jumbler app? Which uses the same kind of delays to PREVENT actual movement because it's so confusing?

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakkura View Post
    The extra lag on a TV can be MUCH, MUCH worse than the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz. At worst, a 60 Hz screen instead of a 120 Hz screen takes you from a frame time of 8.33 ms to 16.67 ms, adding 8.33 ms. TVs typically add 10-40 ms compared to a good gaming monitor. In some cases even more than that.
    Linked my PC to the family HDTV once and almost wept blood due to the very noticeable input lag. Never did it again, bought a decent PC screen instead.

  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Sakkura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave L. View Post
    Oh no! 8 and a bit THOUSANDTHS OF A SECOND added in lag! How could anybody possibly survive playing a game like that?!
    I guess you missed the part where I didn't call the 8.33 ms a problem, but used it to illustrate that monitor lag can be far worse than the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz (which will usually actually be even less than that 8.33 ms).

  20. #60
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    Anyone have a countdown or something? I suppose the first announcement will be done late GTM+1.

    Forget it, is on the very page.
    http://store.steampowered.com/livingroom/

    The announcement seems 5 hours from now. So around 7:00 pm in my timezone.
    Last edited by Tei; 23-09-2013 at 01:08 PM.

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