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  1. #21
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Yes all those amazing optimisations like running a game at sub 720p, tiny textures, barely scraping 20-30 fps or hacks like GTAV streaming from two different medias just to try and keep up; even then it struggles. Yes consoles games are better looking but I wouldn't say it was an enormous leap. And with next-gen developers barely shooting for 1080p let alone a solid 60fps as well. This fact is pretty unlikely to change if the current generation is anything to go by, where performance is readily sacrificed for some pointless extra graphical effect.

    Look at games like Ryse which has been in development for a long time, developed by people that know their stuff when it comes to the technical aspects are struggling pushing for 900p at 30fps. I don't think the fact it is new hardware is really the entire crux of the issue.
    No launch title releases ever push the new consoles that far. They always end up looking a bit better than their current gen counter parts for a while. Then once devs get used to the tricks and whats available to them, they improve them. Just look at something like Beyond Two Souls which is being released at the end of the PS3's life cycle and compare it even to Heavy Rain.

    Also Ryse was originally to be on 360, it was only first shown off two years ago and was heavily based around Kinect. It's now neither of those things. MS have said there'll be pushes toward 1080p and more frames in the future. How they intend to do it I don't know, but I won't be too surprised when games on the PS4 and Xbox1 all start looking better in about two to three years time. MS have already said their machine will be able to do 4k.

    Also with the increasing sophistication of consoles the interference from the operating system is increasing, particularly when looking at the Xbone and it's heavy emphasis on multi-tasking, switching between processes takes time (in fact it is just wasted time the CPU does no useful work). The idea that when developing game you get the full power of the machine really isn't the case and has not been for a long time.
    Both the PS4 and XB1 are set up in a manner so that there's no wasted cycles. They both have a total of 8 cores, either on one chip or split, with one part being dedicated to games and the other being dedicated to the OS, Apps and the xboxs instant switching between games and movies thing. It's been a while since I watched the announcement conferences.

    Finally, UBI have come out and said that those specs are BS. They're not official. Most likely a "reliable source" leaked them to all the major gaming sites and as soon as one of them took the bate the rest followed.
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  2. #22
    Activated Node Case's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Yes all those amazing optimisations like running a game at sub 720p, tiny textures, barely scraping 20-30 fps or hacks like GTAV streaming from two different medias just to try and keep up
    Waaaah? Its 7 bloody years old dude and you're expecting 1080p at 60fps?

    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Look at games like Ryse which has been in development for a long time, developed by people that know their stuff when it comes to the technical aspects are struggling pushing for 900p at 30fps. I don't think the fact it is new hardware is really the entire crux of the issue.
    This is new hardware and a first edition/first gen game. Compare it to a first gen Xbox360 games vs what is available now.
    Ofcourse the developers who are making Ryse arn't optimised to the very extreme of what the hardware is capable of.
    In a few years games will surpass Ryse's graphical fidelity and optimisation no problem due to pure time and money spent on this generations hardware.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Case View Post
    Years of tailor making games to a specific, unchanging architecture and rule-set is bloody amazing in comparison to PC development.
    Precisely. As developers become much more comfortable with the system they can squeeze even more power out of it. I don't know why some people don't understand this!


    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Yes all those amazing optimisations like running a game at sub 720p...
    To be fair the 360 came out in 2005. In 2005 I had a Pentium 4 @ 3Ghz, an ATI Radeon 9800 Pro, and maybe 2GB of RAM. That system would play jack shit in the way of modern games at 720p today. The fact that the consoles do what they do even at 30FPS @ 720p is remarkable. Hypothetically your original 360 (assuming it lived that long, and we all know they don't but let's pretend) could have lasted you from 2005 up until now, playing all the latest titles. How many gaming PCs managed that?

    Quote Originally Posted by byteCrunch View Post
    Also with the increasing sophistication of consoles the interference from the operating system is increasing... [...] The idea that when developing game you get the full power of the machine really isn't the case and has not been for a long time.
    On the other hand you are correct about this, consoles are becoming more complex and losing some of that ground... but they're still built to a single hardware profile which makes optimisation a lot easier. That advantage hasn't suddenly disappeared.
    Last edited by soldant; 05-10-2013 at 01:03 AM. Reason: Spelling
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  4. #24
    Activated Node Case's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Hypothetically your original 360 (assuming it lived that long, and we all know they don't but let's pretend) could have lasted you from 2005 up until now, playing all the latest titles. How many gaming PCs managed that?
    My pre-ordered first gen xbox360 plays GTA V just fine :D

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Case View Post
    My pre-ordered first gen xbox360 plays GTA V just fine :D
    Kind sir,

    I do not mean to imply that you are deceiving the other good sirs and or ladies of this fine establishment, but I politely request photographic evidence. Such a wondrous thing would be a sight to behold! Indeed it would warm my cold, steel heart. Pray tell, has your magic device ever suffered a fault before?

    Sincerely yours,
    Soldant.
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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Kind sir,

    I do not mean to imply that you are deceiving the other good sirs and or ladies of this fine establishment, but I politely request photographic evidence. Such a wondrous thing would be a sight to behold! Indeed it would warm my cold, steel heart. Pray tell, has your magic device ever suffered a fault before?

    Sincerely yours,
    Soldant.
    I have a 360 circa Christmas 2006 that, from the last time I played Armoured Core V a couple months ago, was still in working condition. That said, it was sent to Microsoft twice as a result of RRODs.

  7. #27
    Activated Node Case's Avatar
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    I would kindly provide said requested evidence to satisfy your enquiry but unfortunately the excessive "Concrete drill" sound which emanates from said Xbox360 impairs my ability to hold the camera steady.

  8. #28
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    Precisely. As developers become much more comfortable with the system they can squeeze even more power out of it. I don't know why some people don't understand this!



    Yeah. Both screens are from NES. First games in lifecycle of consoles aren't the best at utilising these consoles power.

    If someone is curious - these games are Donkey Kong and Mr. Gimmick.
    Last edited by GameCat; 05-10-2013 at 10:06 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin View Post
    I have a 360 circa Christmas 2006 that, from the last time I played Armoured Core V a couple months ago, was still in working condition. That said, it was sent to Microsoft twice as a result of RRODs.
    And you can attest it's insides are still gen1? Though I have fixed 1 Xbox and 2 PS3s with just a heat gun and some paste. :D

  10. #30
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    And you can attest it's insides are still gen1? Though I have fixed 1 Xbox and 2 PS3s with just a heat gun and some paste. :D
    highly unlikely. if it rroded then insides are probably new.

  11. #31
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Case View Post
    I would kindly provide said requested evidence to satisfy your enquiry but unfortunately the excessive "Concrete drill" sound which emanates from said Xbox360 impairs my ability to hold the camera steady.
    Then I shall take this as proof of your claim and doff my hat to your console. Bravo, sir.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by GameCat View Post
    Yeah. Both screens are from NES. First games in lifecycle of consoles aren't the best at utilising these consoles power.

    If someone is curious - these games are Donkey Kong and Mr. Gimmick.
    oh you dont even need to go that far: Super Mario Bros 1-2-3 is the best display of how tech evolved on the NES.
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  13. #33
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    I was about to bite. Then I totally forgot they re-did 3 (in a multi pack if IRRC) on the SNES, so it did come out on the NES first. Super Mario World was the first Mario for the SNES. Bravo sir and a well directed blow to the argument. Tally ho, pip pip.

  14. #34
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    errr.. you're welcome?
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  15. #35
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    NES games were enhanced more so by adding more RAM to the game cartridge, not just getting more out of the NES.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_...ent_controller

    We saw this externally with the 32X and N64 upgraded RAM.

    Disc based consoles give a better idea how games evolved over the console's life cycle. Compare say, Uncharted 1 (2007) to Last of Us (2013).

    Compare GTA V to launch titles.
    Last edited by Moraven; 06-10-2013 at 09:40 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post

    Disc based consoles give a better idea how games evolved over the console's life cycle. Compare say, Uncharted 1 (2007) to Last of Us (2013).

    .
    Sure they evolved, but this very example can be atributed also to game budgets which heavily inflated over this console cycle, more money for more graphics.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naramsin View Post
    Sure they evolved, but this very example can be atributed also to game budgets which heavily inflated over this console cycle, more money for more graphics.
    Well, yes, everything's down to more budget in some way, but there's a significant difference between Uncharted > The Last of Us and, say, Grand Theft Auto IV > Grand Theft Auto V. The two GTAs put the emphasis squarely on "more graphics", almost literally - more money into development meaning more people working on world-building meaning more art everywhere in GTA V - whereas Naughty Dog concentrated on refining their PS3 tech for six years, meaning they can do things with the hardware at the end of its lifecycle that they simply didn't know how to do at the start of it (lighting effects, shaders, texture streaming), not simply that they knew how to squeeze more assets in.

    Obviously this isn't a black-and-white example - GTA V has effects GTA IV didn't, and TLoU has a bigger, more expansive world than the first Uncharted. But overall, the point stands - developers learn more about the platforms they're working on, games evolve, and there's much more going on than just spiralling budgets, no matter how fashionable it is to blame greedy publishers for everything bad about the industry.

  18. #38
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    The two GTAs put the emphasis squarely on "more graphics", almost literally - more money into development meaning more people working on world-building meaning more art everywhere in GTA V.
    While I agree with your general post, this might be an over-simplification. It's not just more art (in terms of textures and sahders) in GTA, it's also little details in the world which make it look much more believable. Motorist habits, pedestrian activities, conversations that go on... all those sorts of things have evolved steadily from the walking targets in GTA3 or VC. When people say "graphics" they instantly leap to bigger textures and more shaders (i.e. the Crysis approach) but it can just as easily become about making the world more realistic or interactive. Pedestrian activities may not be part of core gameplay, but they make the world look a lot better.
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  19. #39
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    I suspect there's the usual 'pick a random spec' thing going-on there - esp as a Q6600 stoneage tech. compared to a lot of dual-core CPUs which came way after it...

  20. #40
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naramsin View Post
    Sure they evolved, but this very example can be atributed also to game budgets which heavily inflated over this console cycle, more money for more graphics.
    Right. So what will stop them increasing the budget again in the next console cycle from the launch of the PS4/Xbox1 until their midlife and onto their end of cycle?

    Nothing. They might even decide to spend less on advertising and use that money on even better graphics/gameplay, but let's not hope for a miracle just yet.

    And again, those specs are bogus, UBI have said the real specs will be out soon and will be lower than what's given there.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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