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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    [VS] State of [RPS]

    I'd be interested in ideas Mr Eclectic, on how we support our best players?

    We need to be better at things like squad cohesion, pulling off tactical strikes and the like. We've stopped even doing the basics like gathering at entrances and storming buildings together.

    But other than keep going the fuck on about how we need to play better as squads, I'm at a loss as to how we actually do it...
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    I'd be interested in ideas Mr Eclectic, on how we support our best players?

    We need to be better at things like squad cohesion, pulling off tactical strikes and the like. We've stopped even doing the basics like gathering at entrances and storming buildings together.
    Besides these, which are the absolute basics...

    Response times: redeploys, rallying, movement. They all suffer atm. Thus we rush into action in order to make up for the lost time. Unfortunately, I've already read Proust...

    Better use of support classes: medics must follow, and never lead an assault. Be ready to engage, but keep in mind that their job is to keep the rest of the platoon alive. Engineers must always first place ammo packs, preferably just behind the first line of contact. Also follow MAXes, and finally, engineers watch the rear of the formation. THE REAR! Finally, learn when, how and where to place AP mines. Hint: not close to where we are standing. One infiltrator per platoon who just spams recon darts.

    Movement, positioning, formation: we only go in a column, so are easily taken out. Also, we hold our advance too easily. Some times it makes sense to approach in a broad line or V formation (it also allows for breaking off the formation in two, with one part fixing and the other flanking). Poor breach practices, poor checking of corners and blind spots. Also, when trying to control a choke point, a lot of people stand at the choke point, thus negating the advantage: the whole point of a choke point is to choke the opponent when it reaches it - not stand there and be choked ourselves. And we tend to always cover only one direction. We should always try to establish a 360 perimeter.

    Orders: orders are orders, not suggestions. You don't like following orders, don't play in a squad. You feel like orders interrupt your stream of consciousness, go find another venue. We are here to play a game, within its context, rules, goals and parameters, not attend an open mic night.

    Beyond those, we can go into tactics. The organised use of force multipliers, such as keeping 3-4 scythes in the air, or 2-3 harassers on the ground, always trying to disrupt the opponent's disposition of forces. 3 harassers are 6 people out of the main infantry force, but they require a far larger amount of forces from the opponent, as long as the harassers act in unison.

    Attacking from multiple directions, use of galaxies and air, combined arms and flanking maneuvers. And fast, decisive movement.

    This outfit is for everyone, for sure. That means for casual players, but also for more competitive ones. The majority of the casuals will bounce off. It is their nature. The competitive players though, even those that start as casual ones but get the bug, are those that tend to hang around. And the casuals will stick more around a group that's winning, or at least has a consistently decent performance. A group with a deeper gameplay has also more long term appeal. Casual play means just pewpew. This gets old fast. If there is no more in offer, why stick around?

  3. #3
    Lesser Hivemind Node
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    positioning, medic usage, rear guard/full angle coverage, and permanent and full coverage of bases in infil darts are definitely things we could improve upon. especially the infil dart thing is easy and enforceable.

  4. #4
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    We don't seem too terrible at some of the things Eclectic mentions. We are getting better at cohesion and using support classes effectively, and unless I'm being told to stack on the leader I'm constantly looking to flank/find different doorways/approaches to the target.

    I cannot be the only one that does this tho it might not be that visible to others. Probably still worth encouraging this sort of thing, but you cannot really micromanage it outside of tacgir.

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    @Eclectic. Yes. That's not quite what I meant though.

    I know what we need to do. It's all those things on your list and more besides.

    What I'm at a loss for is how we go about making these things part of our 'playing habits'?
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    What I'm at a loss for is how we go about making these things part of our 'playing habits'?
    I wrote an extremely long thing, but the gist of it is that I feel the same way...
    Last edited by MrEclectic; 17-10-2013 at 12:51 AM.

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Aside from practice with core players, you're not making this a habit. Start with a squad at first. It's not about tactics, it's just, squad rule - follow your SL, if you don't, you get Delta squaded.
    Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
    Creation is summed up, O man, in thee;
    Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
    Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!
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  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooper View Post
    @Eclectic. Yes. That's not quite what I meant though.

    I know what we need to do. It's all those things on your list and more besides.

    What I'm at a loss for is how we go about making these things part of our 'playing habits'?
    Simple enough. Not going to be popular but stop letting everyone and anyone in. The open door policy means that we are (or where) getting new people in all the time. They'd need to be trained to our play style. They may or may not stick around. Then we repeat the cycle over and over. That drains people out, people who know it all and who want to play that way but have to spend a majority of their time teaching/playing with people who might not be overly interested in the first place.

    To draw a comparison to other team like games and mmo's, the best guilds in WoW where the ones who where selective and kept their rosters to a minimum. A core team of like minded people who all wanted the best from each other and mutually agreed on their goals. That's what you need if you want to cater to the guys looking for more. Limited places, given to those who've proven they're capable and willing and who already know the drill.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Simple enough. Not going to be popular but stop letting everyone and anyone in. The open door policy means that we are (or where) getting new people in all the time. They'd need to be trained to our play style. They may or may not stick around. Then we repeat the cycle over and over. That drains people out, people who know it all and who want to play that way but have to spend a majority of their time teaching/playing with people who might not be overly interested in the first place.

    To draw a comparison to other team like games and mmo's, the best guilds in WoW where the ones who where selective and kept their rosters to a minimum. A core team of like minded people who all wanted the best from each other and mutually agreed on their goals. That's what you need if you want to cater to the guys looking for more. Limited places, given to those who've proven they're capable and willing and who already know the drill.
    But you don't need to do that. You just need to rerank yourselves.
    Start being selective in the outfit. Don't need to do anymore than that.
    Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
    Creation is summed up, O man, in thee;
    Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
    Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!
    http://ps2guides.besaba.com/

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    That's also an option. There can be two sets of players. But that's what has been tried before and it doesn't seem to have panned out.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mrpier's Avatar
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    We haven't had many new players in the last couple of months I would hazard. I haven't logged on much these last two weeks, but when I have I usually recognize a large majority of the names in mumble.

  12. #12
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Bankrotas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrpier View Post
    We haven't had many new players in the last couple of months I would hazard. I haven't logged on much these last two weeks, but when I have I usually recognize a large majority of the names in mumble.
    If I don't know someone in RTRS, I try to know them. I question them, till they tell me everything or leave.
    Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
    Creation is summed up, O man, in thee;
    Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
    Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!
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  13. #13
    Network Hub Henlaaz's Avatar
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    dont think its rocket science, you need vocal experienced squad leaders reinforcing these principles frequently. The real issue is getting vocal experienced squad leaders squad leading on a regular basis due to all the various reasons why they dont, which have been discussed on these forums ad infinitum

  14. #14
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus MrEclectic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlaaz View Post
    dont think its rocket science, you need vocal experienced squad leaders reinforcing these principles frequently. The real issue is getting vocal experienced squad leaders squad leading on a regular basis due to all the various reasons why they dont, which have been discussed on these forums ad infinitum
    These vocal experienced leaders need to know that their team is willing to both follow their experience and put up with their voice.

  15. #15
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henlaaz View Post
    dont think its rocket science, you need vocal experienced squad leaders reinforcing these principles frequently. The real issue is getting vocal experienced squad leaders squad leading on a regular basis due to all the various reasons why they dont, which have been discussed on these forums ad infinitum
    The real issue is the vocal experienced get fed up when their squads don't listen to them.
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  16. #16
    Network Hub Henlaaz's Avatar
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    ymmv but <most> ppl seem willing to take instruction, even more so now that we are down to 1 or 2 squads most nights

  17. #17
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    Yeah, that's the advantage of lower numbers, it's much easier to SL now than it was in the past and it should be easier to encourage good practice (flanking, responsiveness).

    Re: limiting squad/outfit recruitment, absolutely no. A lot of the current regular players weren't in the outfit six months ago. I don't feel like we have a revolving door policy, so much as historically good uptake plus general PS2 fatigue. People aren't going to other outfits, they just aren't playing anymore.

    Anyway, re: the original question of how to cater to the more hardcore, we should keep pushing for thurs as stratgir. Since we no longer have the numbers for regular tacgir it's even more important to put the focus on thurs as highly coordinated teamwork night. It's always been the most popular night, there is a good reason for this.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus WallyTrooper's Avatar
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    Venturing a difficult suggestion here but here goes:

    Suggestion: Create a new outfit: [RPST]

    [DIG] were a zergfit, no one would argue with that. Then came their tactical division [DIGT] which is now regarded as one of the best VS outfits on Miller (by me at least, anyone agree?). [RPS] is by any definition a zergfit. We have 1,000+ members and no means of addressing them and if they choose not to be in mumble or follow any orders we have no sanctions. Sure we get grumpy and hit this forum but we pretty much never actually kick. What MrEclectic and others describe is how to make the outfit more highly skilled but as Jesus_Phish says that doesn't work with a cast of thousands who change like the seasons. The core folks get tired of seeing the same discussions and forever covering 'the basics'.

    [RPS] exists for the readers of Rock, Paper, Shotgun so I think it would be wrong to change the [RPS] ethic. It's great what has been developed here. However, if there is a large enough group who want to be tactical I really cannot see a way to effectively achieve that without radically changing something. Starting a new outfit seems like the cleanest way to do this, we could still share mumble but [RPST] would need to have clear expectations and sanctions if players don't meet those expectations.

    Personally, I'm quite ambivalent because I'm not playing a lot these days but I've played with [RPS] long enough to feel the frustration of seeing the same things covered time and again. Why else did TacGir come about if not because people were getting frustrated with the 'open mic night' experience as MrEclectic so eloquently put it?
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  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mrpier's Avatar
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    I don't see the need for that, but that's maybe for another thread.

  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    Most of the time people do listen to instruction if it's being given. We know the drill by now: SLs should be talking to people nigh constantly, directing them as much as possible.

    We just don't do that as much as we should. Those of us who can do it do get tired. Maybe we should just step up to the mark more often.

    As for another outfit: This was suggested some time ago. I was pretty against it then, and even moreso now. We are down to such a small group that fragmentation is wrong. Moreover: If you want to extract yourself, then just use another Mumble channel: no need for a whole other outfit.

    Also: being tactical does not go against what RPS is about
    We are open, yes. we have some people who don't play very often, yes. but we've proved in the past that a core of people who know what they are doing, lead by example and talk everyone else through it can pull of tight, tactical movement with good effect. What we lack is tight squad leading as a given for how we play rather than a rarity.

    What we need is a culture shift. Towards more 'serious face' play every night. Basic squad cohesion and movement should be just how we play.

    We can do that with a bunch of old players and some new players easily enough. New / casual players do just fit into the groove.

    What we need to do is put that groove in place.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
    KILL WESTON KILL MUST KILLTHEWESTERNINMYHEADDOESN’TEXSIST
    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
    UNDERSTANDTHISANDFUCKOFFPIRATEBAY.TIMEDOESNTEXSIST FORMEASIMPATEKPHILLPE.
    BANG

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