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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    hm. To be honest, Ive never had to use it, but cant you get refunds anyway? in general? without support?
    A chargeback will get your account suspended AFAIK.

  2. #62
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    A chargeback will get your account suspended AFAIK.
    And rightfully so for reasons TB covered in a video a few months back. In a nutshell: It actually hurts the company as far as the better business bureau and all that jazz is concerned and said company is well within their rights to never want to do business with you again as you are calling them scammers and liars and thieves, so you clearly don't want to do business with THEM ever again.
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  3. #63
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    My girlfriend bought me ARMA II last year and cancelled the payment through her bank later that day as she didnt recognise it. I was suspended from playing games but luckily I found someone at steam who was great and sorted it out for me. I think it just depends on who you get assigned to with customer support.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingmarzo View Post
    My girlfriend bought me ARMA II last year and cancelled the payment through her bank later that day as she didnt recognise it. I was suspended from playing games but luckily I found someone at steam who was great and sorted it out for me. I think it just depends on who you get assigned to with customer support.
    Pretty much the majority of existing customer service departments.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And rightfully so for reasons TB covered in a video a few months back. In a nutshell: It actually hurts the company as far as the better business bureau and all that jazz is concerned and said company is well within their rights to never want to do business with you again as you are calling them scammers and liars and thieves, so you clearly don't want to do business with THEM ever again.
    Exactly, it's effectively a method of recovering cash and them punishing the merchant, but in the modern age of entitled gamers where "broken" translates to "I don't like this game because it wasn't tailor made for me" it's the standard response to any and all complaints. "Buyer beware" applies now more than ever, particularly in the age of Kickstarters. We can't demand refunds just because we didn't like a game.
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  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And rightfully so for reasons TB covered in a video a few months back. In a nutshell: It actually hurts the company as far as the better business bureau and all that jazz is concerned and said company is well within their rights to never want to do business with you again as you are calling them scammers and liars and thieves, so you clearly don't want to do business with THEM ever again.
    I dealt with times when a chargeback is needed. If it "hurts the company" they should consider their products. "Don't hurt the company" is not a legitimate defense against said company selling fraudulent products. However, we always reccomeneded it as a last resourt. However, that option was needed at times. Certain companies DESERVE their Visa/CC access revoked.

    If you knew anything about CC systems, you'd know the companies involved in them have a requirement and contract to uphold certain standards. If they do not offer a refund at point of contact, it's not the customers or CC providers problem if a charge back "hurts" the company. As it's in the contract, it's part of the risk (running a business has risk) and it's something the company should manage and provide for if they don't get the product side of things correct.

    TL:DR a "chargeback" is part of the CC system. If your company cannot deal with it as a business risk, then don't take up CC payments. Most small companies do not, either because of rolling fees or because of the risk of chargeback (say a $10,000 chargeback on a plumber/builder!). Same might go for indies.

    As a side note, KickStarter don't even release the funds if the KS is not successful. Perhaps this is similar. If the developers of a game (anywhere, not just steam), get a large chargeback percentage, then something went wrong. Are they deserving of all those funds if a large swath of customers consider a chargeback required?

    Is it "entitlement" to ask for your money back? No, as it would not be written into CC reg, consumer regs etc if not at least seen as desirable by merchants, businesses and customers alike. As an example, lots of companies do "no fix no fee" or "100% satisfaction guaranteed". I've seen packets of sweets offering "full refunds" for unsatisfied customers!
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 24-10-2013 at 11:04 AM.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    I dealt with times when a chargeback is needed. If it "hurts the company" they should consider their products. "Don't hurt the company" is not a legitimate defense against said company selling fraudulent products. However, we always reccomeneded it as a last resourt. However, that option was needed at times. Certain companies DESERVE their Visa/CC access revoked.
    Which is why, if you use it, you pretty much need to be willing to never do business with that company ever again. Somehow, I don't see Steam selling a shitty game as being a rationale for that.

    As a side note, KickStarter don't even release the funds if the KS is not successful. Perhaps this is similar. If the developers of a game (anywhere, not just steam), get a large chargeback percentage, then something went wrong. Are they deserving of all those funds if a large swath of customers consider a chargeback required?
    Except that it isn't the devs, it is the store.

    Is it "entitlement" to ask for your money back? No, as it would not be written into CC reg, consumer regs etc if not at least seen as desirable by merchants, businesses and customers alike. As an example, lots of companies do "no fix no fee" or "100% satisfaction guaranteed". I've seen packets of sweets offering "full refunds" for unsatisfied customers!
    And while I have never been enough of a prick to do that, I am fairly certain it involves contacting the manufacturer, not the supermarket.


    If you feel your only course of action is to "go nuclear" with a chargeback, feel free. Just realize that you won't be using that service ever again and that you are PROBABLY screwing over the wrong people anyway.
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  8. #68
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    I know Blizzard always had a problem with abusive chargebacks people would do for temporarily accounts and had to take steps to minimize it. For new accounts (and some older ones) they would hold the charge for 1-3 days to do some extra verification. Of course this can backfire for customers that will never chargeback.

    They could always give a Steam Wallet refund option if they are that worried about refunds and taking the loss on CC fees. That is what they did for mine. While I prefer a full refund, I knew I was going to spend that $30 in the future on Steam. I like EA Origin offering some refund policy. What if the game does not run on your PC? What if it really is broken?

  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    I know Blizzard always had a problem with abusive chargebacks people would do for temporarily accounts and had to take steps to minimize it. For new accounts (and some older ones) they would hold the charge for 1-3 days to do some extra verification. Of course this can backfire for customers that will never chargeback.

    They could always give a Steam Wallet refund option if they are that worried about refunds and taking the loss on CC fees. That is what they did for mine. While I prefer a full refund, I knew I was going to spend that $30 in the future on Steam. I like EA Origin offering some refund policy. What if the game does not run on your PC? What if it really is broken?
    I like it in theory. The problem is how much it will be abused. Don't believe me? In the other thread discussing the new Family Sharing stuff, the very first person to report in on how it works spends a significant part of his post explaining how he bypassed it so that he and said family member can play the game at the exact same time.

    Simple use case: Buy game, authenticate it, switch to offline mode, play until completion, use phone to request refund and say "it didn't work"

    Or we just deal with "what constitutes not working?". I regularly cite how JA2 had a money bug on Steam that Strategy First took years to resolve. The game itself was fully playable, but not as intended. Or what about games with "fundamentally broken AI" (akin to Zeno Clash 2 on release)? Does that count as broken? Because, if so, I know LOTS of people who want refunds for the entire OFP/ArmA series :p (said people are stupid poopy heads :p)

    Then, what about the people (like myself) who shop bargains? A significant portion of my, admittedly way too large, steam collection were purchased in bundles and at other sites. How does THAT work for a refund?

    All of this is why I think Valve just need to provide better mechanisms for the publishers/devs to handle it, and then take a hands off approach outside of shit like War Z and Dark Matter (where the media is going to throw a hissy fit FOR the consumers). If you want a refund for Call of Battlefields 24, you need to contact the publisher. Because as far as Steam is concerned, you already opened and "consumed" the product you got from them.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Then, what about the people (like myself) who shop bargains? A significant portion of my, admittedly way too large, steam collection were purchased in bundles and at other sites. How does THAT work for a refund?
    Presumably if you buy a product from a different website that activates on Steam your complaint ought to be handled by that website rather than Steam, in the same way that if you buy a product from Steam directly your complaint ought to be handled by Steam rather than the developer.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  11. #71
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Presumably if you buy a product from a different website that activates on Steam your complaint ought to be handled by that website rather than Steam, in the same way that if you buy a product from Steam directly your complaint ought to be handled by Steam rather than the developer.
    So GMG gives me a refund, but I still have the key on my account in Steam

    Or Steam gives me a refund for money I never gave them (I don't know exactly how the resale works, but I am going to assume Steam only gets a portion of the 50 bucks I give GMG).

    This is why I think it needs to be handled on a publisher/dev by publisher/dev basis, and even then they are going to take a hit (because they probably won't get the full sale, and they have less control over discounts)
    Last edited by gundato; 24-10-2013 at 05:09 PM.
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  12. #72
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    All systems can be bypassed. Relying on their security is relying on their failure.
    A chargeback is a last resort, and usually prevents any more custom (with that card and possibly your details) with the store (in this case Steam). But if Steam/Valve do not offer refunds for mis-advertising or incorrect information given at the point of sale, I will happily stop purchasing from them should that future problem happen.

    I don't think a rubbish game is reason for chargeback. However, I'm not even sure who is advising it for this game, as TBs review was the game was poor and rubbish, not that is had incorrect information advertised (that would apply to other games Steam has given refunds on).

    So my apologies, I said people can and have the right to apply a chargeback. I did not advise when or how to do this. Or if it is even a good option here, obviously it is not. As a bare minimum their CC and bank should advise them, along with Steam support and the developers. In no way though, does the customer have a responsibility towards the business after purchase, do they?

    It might differ in other countries, but here the UK most places are rather good with returns policies. Yes music and video is different, but we are talking about the point of purchase here, not the consumption (as in is it fit for sale in the first place). Where others may say "it's between the developer and the customer", in the UK it's recognized it's the stores (sellers) responsibility to make sure the product is fit. For example, the food won't kill you, the cd/dvd is not damaged, the electrical equipment won't catch fire. While not responsible for the costs, as they can claim off the manufacturer, they are the point of call for the customer. There is precedent for this, in games like Simcity5 or as mentioned that Z game.
    Last edited by TechnicalBen; 24-10-2013 at 05:18 PM.

  13. #73
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    Interesting for Steam and GoG.com to take charge on Dark Matter complaints, which was more communication failure by the Studio head who stuck around to collect revenue checks while he let go of his team. Paradox games are constantly released as buggy and broken but will man up to it in the more extreme cases. SotS they offered refunds and offered all DLC content free. Stardock gave Elemental future updates free and offered refunds.

    Do publishers have the ability to disable a key on Steam?

    I think also the abuse of any refund system is not the norm but more of the exception. There are cheap bastards that will abuse anything system to get a legit free copy of an item. The companies usually find it easier to deal with all cases as real complaints then spend a lot of time and money to weed out all the obvious scams. Or they just refuse refunds to protect themselves but also upset customers with legitimate problems.

    Time to time I will go in on a game of questionable value because it look seems interesting. Sometimes I hit a gem, sometimes I don't. The same goes with any consumer products really. You can research all you want but you are always at risk regardless of having a poor experience with it. If because it fails to work to what it is stated to do, hopefully they offer a refund. If it just not lives up to your expectations, you live with it and don't buy from them again.

    I know I won't buy a future SteelSeries headset after having crappy USB connection Audiomixer extension and the fact I exchanged one (that I paid shipping for) for a brand new one that did the same exact thing. Sucks to have to buy extensions on my own and crappy customer service, but crap purchases happen and life goes on.

  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    Interesting for Steam and GoG.com to take charge on Dark Matter complaints, which was more communication failure by the Studio head who stuck around to collect revenue checks while he let go of his team. Paradox games are constantly released as buggy and broken but will man up to it in the more extreme cases. SotS they offered refunds and offered all DLC content free. Stardock gave Elemental future updates free and offered refunds.
    Yeah, for the most part, it is the publisher's problem. Steam/GoG only cared for Dark Matter and War Z because the media were freaking out over it, since neither did anything that hadn't been done before.

    It is like a restaurant that gives a crying kid an ice cream cone to shut it up. They have no legal or moral obligation to do so, but it is hurting their business to have that kid crying and ruining everyone else's meal.

    I think also the abuse of any refund system is not the norm but more of the exception. There are cheap bastards that will abuse anything system to get a legit free copy of an item. The companies usually find it easier to deal with all cases as real complaints then spend a lot of time and money to weed out all the obvious scams. Or they just refuse refunds to protect themselves but also upset customers with legitimate problems.
    Well, the thing is, there really aren't that many "legitimate" problems these days, at least compared to the days of yore. I know we still bitch, but think about it: When Daggerfall had a "buggy release", it was actually un-completable. Hell, when I had non-stop crashing with the original Splinter Cell, it was because the game hated my on-board soundcard. These days, the problems are almost all software, driver, and network based and are, with very few exceptions, solvable. The number of users who truly have problems are VERY low, compared to the norm.

    Hell, I suspect that a lot of the people (even on these forums) who have such massive issues with UbiDRM and the like probably just needed to look up port forwarding/allow the thing to install some of its shit that they blocked for security purposes/principle. Of course, normal people aren't supposed to know how to do port forwarding since it is mostly just needed for running servers (which is better done by a company) and less than legal activities :p

    And yeah, normally, it is easier to just accept there will be scammers. But this is the gaming community, where those scammers tend to be in VERY large numbers. Maybe it is the anonymity of the internet, maybe it is just that gaming attracts a bad crowd, but considering how much giveaways and "Family SHaring Programs" get exploited, I don't blame the publishers or distributors for being wary. I also think it is telling that the only major DD services offering refunds "as the norm" are Gamersgate (who sell so much shovelware that it boggles the mind) and Origin (EA are not doing as good as they used to, but they can still absorb losses better than anyone else).

    Time to time I will go in on a game of questionable value because it look seems interesting. Sometimes I hit a gem, sometimes I don't. The same goes with any consumer products really. You can research all you want but you are always at risk regardless of having a poor experience with it. If because it fails to work to what it is stated to do, hopefully they offer a refund. If it just not lives up to your expectations, you live with it and don't buy from them again.

    I know I won't buy a future SteelSeries headset after having crappy USB connection Audiomixer extension and the fact I exchanged one (that I paid shipping for) for a brand new one that did the same exact thing. Sucks to have to buy extensions on my own and crappy customer service, but crap purchases happen and life goes on.
    Thats basically my view as well. If I buy something that just positively absolutely won't work, I'll file a ticket. But I view that as lost money anyway, and I make it a point to do some thorough research before buying if it is more than 10 bucks. Anything less and I just chock it up to "I am supporting a genre I like" and don't care. Worst case scenario: I bring my own lunch to work one more day next week.
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  15. #75
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    "Don't hurt the company" is not a legitimate defense against said company selling fraudulent products.
    The problem is that this is gaming, where "fraudulent product" means "I didn't like this game" or "DAY ONE DLC WTF?" and the standard response is to chargeback. I don't need to do anything other than to point at the Steam Community on any release day of any major title to demonstrate that. We're in a world where "broken" means "I don't like it" as opposed to "totally unplayable due to bugs". The entire consumer movement has been hijacked in gaming by people who think devs have to cater to their every need.
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  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The problem is that this is gaming, where "fraudulent product" means "I didn't like this game" or "DAY ONE DLC WTF?" and the standard response is to chargeback. I don't need to do anything other than to point at the Steam Community on any release day of any major title to demonstrate that. We're in a world where "broken" means "I don't like it" as opposed to "totally unplayable due to bugs". The entire consumer movement has been hijacked in gaming by people who think devs have to cater to their every need.
    Fortunately the system seems to work reasonably well at ignoring those sorts of complaints. There is though a space between "the game literally doesn't work on any computer" and "I didn't like it much" in which a refund would be appropriate, and it's worth exploring where that space is. Factually false claims about the game on the store page is in the space, and is typically correctly treated as such by the stores. And as Dark Matter has shown, a game that works correctly and generally works as advertised but fails to meet a minimum expected standard also lives in that space.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  17. #77
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus somini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Fortunately the system seems to work reasonably well at ignoring those sorts of complaints. There is though a space between "the game literally doesn't work on any computer" and "I didn't like it much" in which a refund would be appropriate, and it's worth exploring where that space is. Factually false claims about the game on the store page is in the space, and is typically correctly treated as such by the stores. And as Dark Matter has shown, a game that works correctly and generally works as advertised but fails to meet a minimum expected standard also lives in that space.
    I agree with this, which is funny, since it renders most of this thread moot.
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  18. #78
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    Daikatana is on Steam? Holy shit. I really hope that when someone launches the game, Steam just has "Someone actually bought this?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!"

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    For the record, Steam Support argued with me that they don't operate in the UK or even in the EU - they claim their 'European' base is somewhere like Switzerland and so they're not required to comply with EU/UK consumer law.

    When I highlighted that their base wasn't the issue - it was where they were SELLING which mattered - they added that even if that were the case, digital download software is effectively exempt of consumer law and I could - to paraphrase - go fuck myself.

    That's why the fact I've spent no actual money on Steam this year makes me (and GMG, Gamefly etc.) smile I guess ;)
    If they add a european tax, like VAT. Then they are working on EU. I have buy stuff directly from Amazon "from USA" and things from some uk download service "from UK", paying USA and UK prices, and I am spanish. Wen I buy a Steam game, I get taxed with the IVA, the european tax.

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    I see on the 7th Guest page, they've fixed the release date at least.

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