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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Well sure, and agreed all around. My point is, there's no justification for it. They're not protecting us from poor quality games by treating indies like beggars at the palace, they're just being dicks.
    While I am not amused by Valve's double standards either, I really can't agree with the notion of them mistreating indie gaming. Despite its shortcomings, Steam is one of the key elements of the contemporary indie golden age.

  2. #22
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    Well, I for one loved 7th Guest as a kid, and have been looking forward to replaying it since I lost the disc sometime in the late 90's.

  3. #23
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    If Steam really are releasing decade old games without optimization for modern systems, well, one wonders how they can get away with it.

  4. #24
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    Could be worse could be Day[Z] [Xbox]One: Garry's[Mod] Incident. Yeah, I think they just googled the top most seached Steam or game terms, added them to their game name, mixed in some FarCry 3 like gameplay and story with "minecrafting/survival" promise and pushed it out with rushed animations, clipart assets and legal takedowns on TotalBiscuit reviews.

    It got Greelighted how?

  5. #25
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Well sure, and agreed all around. My point is, there's no justification for it. They're not protecting us from poor quality games by treating indies like beggars at the palace, they're just being dicks.
    I disagree that they're mistreating indies. Greenlight is a joke because it's a popularity contest, but that's literally the only way it can operate. Valve operating a store and then throwing open the floodgates with an automatic threshold of voting is a recipe for disaster, and potentially litigation depending on what gets sold. Also since Steam is easily what's making Valve the most cash, it's clear they're not just going to walk away from it. They'd have to go back to... well, making games.

    Fact is most of the indie titles on Steam aren't worth much, and as someone else said you can walk into a Google Play/iOS event where you've got oceans of shit drowning a few gems. To be fair I agree that Valve's job isn't to protect us from bad games, but they should protect people from broken games. That said, something like Dark Matter, which just suddenly ends because the devs didn't succeed on Kickstarter, gets approved by Valve which makes me think the entire thing is even worse than I thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by mouton View Post
    Despite its shortcomings, Steam is one of the key elements of the contemporary indie golden age.
    It's also led to cries of "No Steam, no sale!" and it's getting to the point where you've got Steam, much like Kickstarter, becoming an excuse - "If we don't get on Steam/we don't get Kickstarted, we'll never make this game."
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.
    Soldant's Law - A person will happily suspend their moral values if they can express moral outrage by doing so.

  6. #26
    Network Hub sk2k's Avatar
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    I would not call old games lazyware. Lazyware are games like Montague's Mount, which was greenlighted, and Dark Matter, which was released last week.
    Montague's Mount is sold as a full game but it's just a episode with unfinished story and no chance for a second episode.
    Dark Matter is another example for lazyware. The game is unfinished and it ends apruptly with a black screen and some white text. There are rumors that it's just the demo from the kickstarter campaign, sold as a full game. There is no chance that the story continues.

  7. #27
    Network Hub DeekyFun's Avatar
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    I think there's a difference between the idea of 'quality control' from Greenlight, and the 'quality' of old, established games from history. After all, I'm sure that there are quite a lot of people who liked the 7th Guest when it was originally released, despite it's somewhat shonky reputation now. If they want to play it, then I see no reason why Steam shouldn't stock it - it's not like they're forcing anyone to purchase it who didn't/doesn't like it. As long as it's not released broken, obviously. I'd hope someone tested on modern PCs.

    What I'm not so keen on, is what's been previously mentioned; the release date confusion, and also the description suggesting "22 Stunningly rendered 3-D rooms" which might sell someone who didn't know the game was old and they would be disappointed...

  8. #28
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    They should call them "22 rooms rendered in stunning, vintage 3-D."
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  9. #29
    Lesser Hivemind Node L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    I disagree that they're mistreating indies. Greenlight is a joke because it's a popularity contest, but that's literally the only way it can operate. Valve operating a store and then throwing open the floodgates with an automatic threshold of voting is a recipe for disaster, and potentially litigation depending on what gets sold. Also since Steam is easily what's making Valve the most cash, it's clear they're not just going to walk away from it. They'd have to go back to... well, making games.

    Fact is most of the indie titles on Steam aren't worth much, and as someone else said you can walk into a Google Play/iOS event where you've got oceans of shit drowning a few gems. To be fair I agree that Valve's job isn't to protect us from bad games, but they should protect people from broken games. That said, something like Dark Matter, which just suddenly ends because the devs didn't succeed on Kickstarter, gets approved by Valve which makes me think the entire thing is even worse than I thought.


    It's also led to cries of "No Steam, no sale!" and it's getting to the point where you've got Steam, much like Kickstarter, becoming an excuse - "If we don't get on Steam/we don't get Kickstarted, we'll never make this game."
    Of course, I can only speak for myself, but I had never bought Indie games before Steam offered them. I don't feel comfortable having to depend on the website of some two man-studio to be able to redownload games I paid for.

    That said, I do agree that Valve should maintain some kind of standards, especially concerning games that are essentially broken.

  10. #30
    Vector Jams O'Donnell's Avatar
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    I think I preferred Steam when it had pretensions of being a curated store.

  11. #31
    Lesser Hivemind Node Henke's Avatar
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    I thought all the re-releases were silly too, but then Urban Chaos showed up. URBAN CHAOS! :D

    Ok, it was a bit underwhelming to discover that my 360 pad wouldn't work with it, and there was no widescreen support (tho there's a fan-made patch for this). But even so I'm enjoying my trip down memory lane.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jams O'Donnell View Post
    I think I preferred Steam when it had pretensions of being a curated store.
    Did they ever? Wasn't it simply due to having only a limited number of big publishers aboard?

  13. #33
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    Yeah of late steam has been a bit BOG*

    *bad old games

    What with dragons lair, 7th guest, daikatana

    Also some of them remasters were bad like chaos engine, you get better frame rate / graphics running the original in an Amiga emulator.

  14. #34
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    Bad vs broken is a good point. Apple at least makes sure the game is not broken and runs. What does Steam do? They seem to implied in the past they play the game and curated it somewhat.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouton View Post
    Did they ever? Wasn't it simply due to having only a limited number of big publishers aboard?
    I think Steam seemed 'curated' simply because they only had a few resources who looked for and reviewed games which were submitted.

    When you see the range of SHIT on Greenlight you can only imagine what it was like having to actually look at all that stuff - but they've now decided to 'open the floodgates' and they taking a load of GL titles as well as some publisher back-catalogue stuff which I suspect they're getting through other deals they're making.

    It will change how people see Steam - it will dilute the income for new titles on Steam - but it's their decision I guess.

    p.s. Day One got through Greenlight by offering free copies to Greenlight voters - not the only people to have done this but it's rather dishonest I think. "Would you buy this game on Steam?" is hard to say "yes" to when you know it's going to be free to you - it's not an honest choice is it?
    Last edited by trjp; 21-10-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    When you see the range of SHIT on Greenlight you can only imagine what it was like having to actually look at all that stuff
    Still, I prefer shifting the decision to consumers. I suppose it is convenient to have Apple-like walled garden where one is spoon-fed safe material by a benevolent corporate overlord, but I prefer a more anarchic setting. It forces consumers to be less stupid and thus, indirectly, make the industry better.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouton View Post
    Still, I prefer shifting the decision to consumers. I suppose it is convenient to have Apple-like walled garden where one is spoon-fed safe material by a benevolent corporate overlord, but I prefer a more anarchic setting. It forces consumers to be less stupid and thus, indirectly, make the industry better.
    And Steam needs improvements to help that aspect out. GoG.com has a nice system. 5 Star rating, user reviews (which can be rated also), along with users can share games list.

    Steam has... friend recommendations and that seems about it. Oh ratings on Steam Workshop items? I look at my community home and see it filled with DOTA 2 items, RPS articles, Hats, PCgamer. You can Like or Dislike articles and comment on it through Steam. Workshop items have full Discussion, comments tab.

    Of course the Amazon effect of 1 star reviews could happen if the developer/publisher piss people off.

    Give use custom storefronts or some Netflix like recommendation algorithm based on what we rate or have purchased. Customers who bought this also bought feature. There are so many nice features in digital markets and Steam seems to have simply ignored implementing any eCommerce features. Their Sales are about the only thing that effective they have come up with that other stores have copied.

    Unless its a Top Seller, on Sale, or featured you will never notice a game. New releases tab reveals some games if you pay attention to it. Like seeing Shadow Man randomly pop up on Steam the other day.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    And Steam needs improvements to help that aspect out. GoG.com has a nice system. 5 Star rating, user reviews (which can be rated also), along with users can share games list.
    Oh, certainly Steam needs a lot improvements, but there is still the whole internet out there with reviews, gameplay videos, metascores or whatever one uses to check out their games of interest.

    Speaking of GoG, I wish they were more like Amazon, showcasing the most helpful bad review and most helpful good review. As it stands, many games get drowned in one-sided reviews chiefly due to nostalgia factor.

  19. #39
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    Yah, I like to see a middling review that is in the top rated reviews for a 4-5 star. Or a 5 star review for a 3 star game.

  20. #40
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    need I remind everyone that Steam actually refunds games that refuse to work?
    - Tom De Roeck.

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    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

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