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  1. #41
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    need I remind everyone that Steam actually refunds games that refuse to work?
    Not my experience. I had enormous problems for years with Silent Hunter 4 on Steam, went 30 rounds with support, and never got so much as an apology, let alone a refund. And no, I was not rude about it, this is back when I still thought highly of Steam. The truth is, I've literally never had a positive support experience with them.
    Last edited by vinraith; 21-10-2013 at 08:54 PM.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    Not my experience. I had enormous problems for years with Silent Hunter 4 on Steam, went 30 rounds with support, and never got so much as an apology, let alone a refund.
    They basically only do it for the really big-named fuck-ups. For years their version of JA2 had a huge glitch whereby you had infinite money, and neither Steam nor Strategy First would address it outside of "We already sent Steam the patch a year ago, they haven't used it" or "Strategy First has yet to provide us with a patch"

    To my knowledge, the only time Steam has EVER given a proper refund en masse was for Day Z. Everything else is a "You need to fight tooth and nail" dealy.
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  3. #43
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    hm. To be honest, Ive never had to use it, but cant you get refunds anyway? in general? without support?
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Maybe through the dev/publisher specifically (I doubt even they can do it), but generally you file a ticket, potentially wait a month for a response, and get told something like "We don't do refunds".

    And, to be fair, it makes sense. vinraith specifically mentions SH4, but I know a few people who play SH4 frequently-ish, so the game DOES work. So best-case scenario: User's fault (well, maybe not for SH4, but let's ignore that :p). Worst case scenario (which is probably the case with gamers): Scam to get a refund on a game the person doesn't like.

    I am sure that if there were a truly broken game and the publisher/dev showed no signs of being willing to fix it Steam would give refunds, but all it takes is "Oh, the check is in the mail dude. You don't believe us? We are totally good for it" and Steam can't do much unless they are a small indie dev (and even then, Steam is best off waiting to see who the game journalists are going to side with)
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  5. #45
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    yes but wasnt there a refund system that had a fixed number of refunds? ie. 5 or somesuch? and only applicable if in a short period of time after the game was bought?
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    yes but wasnt there a refund system that had a fixed number of refunds? ie. 5 or somesuch? and only applicable if in a short period of time after the game was bought?
    News to me. That might be the EA/Origin model (I hear they started offering refunds of some form). But if Steam DOES have that, then it is hidden behind ninety million layers of shitty customer support.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Steam, but I view all purchases through them as final.
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  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus vinraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    yes but wasnt there a refund system that had a fixed number of refunds? ie. 5 or somesuch? and only applicable if in a short period of time after the game was bought?
    I'm unaware of any such system. You'd think support would have mentioned it, if it existed. In SH4's case the problem was noted and reported nearly instantly after purchase, and I was hardly alone.

    The only digital distributor I've found who's actually good about refunding bad/broken software is Gamersgate, honestly. Hell, they once refunded me the price of a game I'd bought that had DRM I hadn't noticed (Starforce) when I asked. I tend to buy through them when I can, because I've never had a bad customer support experience with them.
    Last edited by vinraith; 21-10-2013 at 09:21 PM.

  8. #48
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vinraith View Post
    I'm unaware of any such system. You'd think support would have mentioned it, if it existed. In SH4's case the problem was noted and reported nearly instantly after purchase, and I was hardly alone.

    The only digital distributor I've found who's actually good about refunding bad/broken software is Gamersgate, honestly. Hell, they once refunded me the price of a game I'd bought that had DRM I hadn't noticed (Starforce) when I asked. I tend to buy through them when I can, because I've never had a bad customer support experience with them.
    yeah, Gamersgate is awesome. only good experience with their support.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Heh, Gamersgate is too quick with the refunds if anything. Had a problem with MoH: Airborne (if memory serves, the downloader wasn't grabbing it for whatever reason). Put a ticket in, they refunded me within 24 hours. Which actually kind of sucked as I wanted to play the game, but I guess that is an improvement.
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  10. #50
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    I got a refund to Steam Wallet as a "one time favor" for a sale that did not take effect at checkout (sale ended by the time I got to complete the order, despite having the correct price in the cart).

    In the USA they say all sales are final. EU consumer protection laws are a bit different in regards to refunds and what not.

  11. #51
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    When my pre-order/beta of Trials HD became a 'released game' and it was still a buggy and near-unplayable mess I decided to ask Steam for a refund.

    They refused, stating that I'd "played for almost 6 hours". I pointed out that most of that time was in the Beta - I pointed to several forum threads (theirs and RedLynx's) where I'd raised issues and tested possible solutions etc.

    No deal - they said the issue was for 'the developer or publisher to address'

    So I'd say the 'easy refund' was not a reality.

    I'm told you can get refunds for pre-orders before release easily - after that I'd consider it 'money spent'.

    You could chargeback your card but that's the path to getting your Steam/PayPal/whatever account closed for good.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    In the USA they say all sales are final. EU consumer protection laws are a bit different in regards to refunds and what not.
    For the record, Steam Support argued with me that they don't operate in the UK or even in the EU - they claim their 'European' base is somewhere like Switzerland and so they're not required to comply with EU/UK consumer law.

    When I highlighted that their base wasn't the issue - it was where they were SELLING which mattered - they added that even if that were the case, digital download software is effectively exempt of consumer law and I could - to paraphrase - go fuck myself.

    That's why the fact I've spent no actual money on Steam this year makes me (and GMG, Gamefly etc.) smile I guess ;)

  13. #53
    Lesser Hivemind Node L_No's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    News to me. That might be the EA/Origin model (I hear they started offering refunds of some form). But if Steam DOES have that, then it is hidden behind ninety million layers of shitty customer support.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Steam, but I view all purchases through them as final.
    News to me too. I make sure I want to buy the game I'm looking at, and if it doesn't work properly after purchase - tough luck. That's why I never buy games on or around launch day, just to see whether there are serious issues, rather than bothering with refunds and support tickets.

  14. #54
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by L_No View Post
    News to me too. I make sure I want to buy the game I'm looking at, and if it doesn't work properly after purchase - tough luck. That's why I never buy games on or around launch day, just to see whether there are serious issues, rather than bothering with refunds and support tickets.
    Same here, the only time I've ever gotten a refund out of Steam was when I cancelled a pre-order for L4D2, but even that was attached with a warning not to make a habit of it. Steam's customer support is terrible and always has been.
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  15. #55
    Network Hub Granath's Avatar
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    I really don't mind some of this older stuff being released on Steam. One person's "lazyware" is another person's classic game. I think so long as the proper specs are disclosed on what can run the game, so be it. I recently ordered Gorky 17 only to find it has a fixed 640 x 480 resolution and tends to crash frequently. I'm not happy about it and I can't play it, but I'm not going to fret over it.

    Speaking of "lazyware", has anyone been following the saga of Dark Matter on Steam and GOG? It seems that they had about 4-5 hours of gameplay built to demo and tried the Kickstarter route but failed badly. So instead of finding a way to finish it, they tried releasing the demo as a full fledged game. There are weapons in the tutorial that don't exist in the game and the end of the game is literally just a text screen. You walk through a random door in a random room and *boom* the wall of text crits you for 1,000,000 and the game ends.

    If they had released it as an episodic game they probably could have gotten away with this. But the company that released it also laid off the programming team after the failed KS, so they can't do much more with it. So they commented on the forums that this was pretty much it. Needless to say, that didn't go over well and the forums exploded. GoG is giving refunds and as of this morning Steam has pulled it from sale.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granath View Post
    If they had released it as an episodic game they probably could have gotten away with this.
    Presumably even an "episodic" game would need to ensure that each episode has a suitable and coherent point at which to end, rather than just at a random door in the middle of a corridor without any warning or sense. Labelling something as "episoding" requires it to actually be in an episodic format, rather than just half a game that stops at a random point.
    Irrelevant on further examination of the rest of the thread.

  17. #57
    Network Hub Granath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NathanH View Post
    Presumably even an "episodic" game would need to ensure that each episode has a suitable and coherent point at which to end, rather than just at a random door in the middle of a corridor without any warning or sense. Labelling something as "episoding" requires it to actually be in an episodic format, rather than just half a game that stops at a random point.
    Note that I didn't say it would be ideal, but simply they could have probably gotten away with it even in a semi-random spot. But since they had no intention of doing so, at least they didn't outright lie about it, price it "per episode" and then never deliver a 2nd episode.

  18. #58
    Lesser Hivemind Node Bobtree's Avatar
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    Does nobody remember the Nintendo Seal of Quality? There's a lesson hidden there.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    To my knowledge, the only time Steam has EVER given a proper refund en masse was for Day Z.
    Close, but that was The War Z.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granath View Post
    Note that I didn't say it would be ideal, but simply they could have probably gotten away with it even in a semi-random spot. But since they had no intention of doing so, at least they didn't outright lie about it, price it "per episode" and then never deliver a 2nd episode.
    http://gamasutra.com/view/news/20291...e_responds.php

    "We had to make a decision," he tells me. "Either we polished up what we had, or just throw it in the bin, and that's it. We chose to keep everyone on for another two months, and use the money we had to make the game as complete as possible."

    He admits that neither Iceberg nor management knew that the ending to the game was missing -- they were under the impression that everything was in order when the game was released. He calls it "total bullshit" that it was released in this state, and adds, "I want this to be solved... We need to fix it."

    There's now a small UK development studio working on a real cinematic ending that ties up the story, and this new ending is planned for release on Friday.

    Beenen is keen to stress that this was not the way that anybody wanted the game's development to go. Heaps of passion was put into the game, he says, and a lack of funds meant that they were forced into a corner. He hopes that players will give the game a chance once it is re-released.
    So a manager of a small studio did not know it was complete? I wonder if the employees cared after getting the hint they would be let go once they finished working.

    Once that add that and Steam is just going to re add it? Seems a bit pre mature that they pulled it in the first place based on other game releases on Steam...We have seen worse.

  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobtree View Post
    Does nobody remember the Nintendo Seal of Quality? There's a lesson hidden there.
    It was mainly a marketing ploy, but it worked – consumers were reassured, and the NES became a great success.[citation needed] Publishers were encouraged to create high-quality titles in other ways as well. Each publisher was only allowed five releases per year, so effort was put into making those few titles successful.[citation needed]
    Quality research.
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