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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    This mythical being leading the charge must actually be able to lead the charge. That means being a prominent figure, having millions of viewers who presumably tune in because they like the content, a decent sized company with enough money to back them up, the list goes on

    Arent you being a little picky? Either ring Notch up or settle down. We could do a lot worse than TB.
    The problem is that most of his venting seems to be directed at the company (who he is quite understandably pissed off with) rather than YouTube (who can actually do something about it).

    If the takeaway message was "contact YouTube, tell them they need to change, help get this fixed" (and yes, he's said that, it's just not been the focus) I'd agree he was leading the charge towards improving things for the better.

    The fact that the majority of his stuff following in the incident has been attacking the publisher that wronged him instead (accusations of Kickstarter fraud, etc.) means it's entirely self-centered. He's not leading a charge at all. He's effectively saying "don't mess with me or I'll drag your name through the mud and make gamers hate you".

    Which is great for protecting his interests. I'm sure other publishers will think twice before serving a takedown message on any of his stuff in the future, and yes, the more he talks about it, the more that message is reinforced.

    That message, however, is of fuck all use to any smaller video-casters who find themselves in a similar position, but simply don't have the audience and celebrity to make life hell for a publisher who wrongs them. Unless he's going to take on every single incident where this happens to anyone in person. Which doesn't appear to be the case.

    The only charge he is leading is to protect his own self-interest. If it were about other, less popular, users, he'd be targeting his ire at YouTube.

  2. #182
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    I think its not Youtube but the law needs to be updated to fine abusive claims. Youtube auto accept any copyright claims (and even has a auto copyright system for video and audio) to keep their safe harbor status intact. The creator who is being sent a notice can dispute it and its baseless, the video goes back up. This works but in the real world a lot of content is related to new information. Send in a baseless claim that keeps a video out for 3-5 days does enough damage to the content creator and hides it long enough for it to get less views once it comes back online.

    Youtube is not going to go out of their way to verify copyright claims. Maybe if they sold a service to content creators to pay for people to seem if a claim has any merit before their video is taken down.

  3. #183
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    Suggesting that the 'law' needs to be changed is showing a fundamental misunderstanding of how our world works.

    Laws are created by politicians at the request (bribery) of wealthy individuals and corporations - to enable those people not only to remain wealthy and powerful but to increase that wealth and power.

    They are not created so that our society can better commentate on itself - indeed, that's probably one of the things those people would rather we didn't do!

    Hoping that 'the law' would recognise the need for less scattershot and abusive use of existing laws assumes that 'the law' doesn't like that sort of thing - but it LOVES it, because it's what keeps lawyers wealthy. If the law were clear and simple, we'd not need armies of lawyers arguing constantly about minutiae - and ultimately spending all the money doing do (back to Dickens again!)

    TO reiterate the other thing again - I'm not looking for a messiah, I just don't want Brian...

  4. #184
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    On a related note: Apparently Nintendo have a blanket "No using our games in videos" rule. Apparently they delayed a podcast a week or two ago because the three hour video had a one minute ad that contained footage of a nintendo game.

    And Moraven: A premium service sounds like a good idea and fits google's attempts to actually turn a profit on Youtube, but I question if it would be cost effective. The people who would pay for that would likely have a lot of videos going up and that is a LOT of potential complaints. Might end up costing more to dedicate lawyers and what not to reviewing that crap.
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  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    Youtube is not going to go out of their way to verify copyright claims. Maybe if they sold a service to content creators to pay for people to seem if a claim has any merit before their video is taken down.
    To specifically field that - how would you suggest they do that? Do you have ANY idea how much work is required to 'verify' a copyright claim - ditto the number of claims which are made.

    I believe Google receive copyright or takedown requests (for all their services) in the vicinity of 100s of 1000s if not millions each week. It's not practical to do more than offer an 'off switch' with some sort of 'on switch' behind it.

  6. #186
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    Just an idea. :)

    I would rather see first punishment for abuse of using copyright claims. Right now there is legislation on curbing patent trolls and penalties on unsubstantiated claims. Hopefully this carries over to copyright claims also at some point.

    I think now you can get someone punished for overbearing claims, but its so costly to yourself it is not worth it.

  7. #187
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    The problem is that most of his venting seems to be directed at the company (who he is quite understandably pissed off with) rather than YouTube (who can actually do something about it).

    If the takeaway message was "contact YouTube, tell them they need to change, help get this fixed" (and yes, he's said that, it's just not been the focus) I'd agree he was leading the charge towards improving things for the better.

    The fact that the majority of his stuff following in the incident has been attacking the publisher that wronged him instead (accusations of Kickstarter fraud, etc.) means it's entirely self-centered. He's not leading a charge at all. He's effectively saying "don't mess with me or I'll drag your name through the mud and make gamers hate you".

    Which is great for protecting his interests. I'm sure other publishers will think twice before serving a takedown message on any of his stuff in the future, and yes, the more he talks about it, the more that message is reinforced.

    That message, however, is of fuck all use to any smaller video-casters who find themselves in a similar position, but simply don't have the audience and celebrity to make life hell for a publisher who wrongs them. Unless he's going to take on every single incident where this happens to anyone in person. Which doesn't appear to be the case.

    The only charge he is leading is to protect his own self-interest. If it were about other, less popular, users, he'd be targeting his ire at YouTube.
    Forgive me if I'm a little out of date here, but I was under the impression that TB is still boycotting Sega, even after the strikes were removed from his account, because many Youtube accounts who got three strikes in the same incident were never restored. I guess he's just passing up revenue out of spite?

    Giving someone a bloody nose for this crap serves as an example to the bigger fish. If there was no reaction, no outrage, they'd just silence anyone they want. Yes, I'm sure a great deal of his ire stemmed from his job being threatened, as if being able to afford food is such a betrayal. And yes I'm sure he could do more. One can ALWAYS do more.

  8. #188
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    Just an idea. :)

    I would rather see first punishment for abuse of using copyright claims. Right now there is legislation on curbing patent trolls and penalties on unsubstantiated claims. Hopefully this carries over to copyright claims also at some point.

    I think now you can get someone punished for overbearing claims, but its so costly to yourself it is not worth it.
    I don't know if I would want that with youtube. Don't get me wrong, I don't like how publishers can potentially kill a channel they don't like at a single moment, but youtube is BIG. As it stands, there is a lot of crap that gets uploaded that REALLY shouldn't be (like all the videos for how to pirate games that actually include links, etc). I know we bitch at stuff like Nintendo having bots to kill videos or award ceremony streams that get killed because they showed a clip of the movie and a filter caught it, but I don't see any other way for the IP holders to protect themselves.

    For this, I cite GameFAQs where, at least a decade or so ago, it was customary for users to "claim" boards for "dead" games. And if they managed to not get their post deleted for however long it takes to get archived, they "forever owned it". It just led to a LOT of spam and annoyance, and even marking them for moderation didn't work well as the queues prioritized actual abuse over off topic posting.


    I think the best bet would be to, ironically, take a page out of GameFAQs's book. let the copyright holders kill videos instantly. But rather than instantly putting up a strike, put it in a queue. The video goes down, and the video poster can then choose to contest or accept it. Accepted takedowns go away and maybe only count as a fraction of a violation (assume it was an innocent mistake, but still keep a mechanism to nuke the assholes). Contested ones get put in a queue for Youtube to deal with (and also count as a fraction of a violation until dealt with), with the copyright holder being able to rescind the nuke request should they deem it acceptable. Still will need more lawyers to deal with the stupidity and might not make much of a difference in the long run, but at least it will protect the video makers and the copyright holders. Assholes will still get banned (it just might take a bit longer), but genuine content makers will have a lot more freedom in that they will likely be able to come to an agreement or just chalk it up as a loss and not get wiped.
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  9. #189
    Activated Node Utnac's Avatar
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    It's fair to say that this was a pretty twatish move by the company. Unfortunately TB is also a twat, so I'm really struggling to take sides in this debate, anyone else in a similar position?

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Uhm. What was TB going to "ban"?
    The other company claimed copywrite infringement when there was not. It resulted in a takedown of the video.
    TB could claim false advertising, could claim back on CC purchases (if it was not a free copy) or worse ask his watches to do the same, and as you say "hurt" the developer. He could contact Steam saying the Dev broke T&C (no doubt somewhere in all the small print a lawyer could find something) and being a small dev, not EA/etc, get the game pulled. If there is no loophole, he could have still rallied for abuse on the forums etc.

    But he did not. He instead did the adult thing, and informed people of either his honest opinion, or the facts as he saw them.

  11. #191
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    The other company claimed copywrite infringement when there was not. It resulted in a takedown of the video.
    TB could claim false advertising, could claim back on CC purchases (if it was not a free copy) or worse ask his watches to do the same, and as you say "hurt" the developer. He could contact Steam saying the Dev broke T&C (no doubt somewhere in all the small print a lawyer could find something) and being a small dev, not EA/etc, get the game pulled. If there is no loophole, he could have still rallied for abuse on the forums etc.

    But he did not. He instead did the adult thing, and informed people of either his honest opinion, or the facts as he saw them.
    If memory serves, the big funny part of this was that the devs/publisher gave TB a review copy. Also, he would basically just be spiting them and not doing anything legal if he tried to get a refund for not being allowed to put a video up.

    What the fuck does Steam's terms and conditions have to do with an agreement between TB and the dev? I know a bunch of people who got banned from Derek Smart's website's forums over the years, should they go rally to Steam that all of Dr Smart's games need to be removed because somehow these magical Terms and Conditions were violated?

    He DID rally people by pointing out the abuse/"abuse"
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  12. #192
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    But he did not. He instead did the adult thing, and informed people of either his honest opinion, or the facts as he saw them.
    I'm not sure that counts as the adult thing to do. It'd been more adult in my eyes if he didn't make a video on it which he knew had a very good chance of going viral and dealt with the company privately and offline, outside of the all seeing eyes of reddit and games journalists frantically copy pasting each others stories around the place.

    TB has the support of an entire network of people with Polaris. Both he and Polaris could have taken this directly to Youtube and WSG without need for a video. As he made very clear, it was an attack solely on him. Not on other people. Other channels didn't have their videos taken down, so he wasn't championing for their sake, he was championing for his own. While he's well within his right to keep his business going, there's more adult ways of doing it.

    Sadly those ways are dying off with twitter, facebook and youtube becoming the go to place to say everything and do everything before you sit down and think about it.
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  13. #193
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    I beg to differ. If a company does things like this, the last thing I want is to not be informed of it. I don't want to support them, I don't want to buy their game, I want nothing to do with them.

    Had TB just quietly resolved this, I would not have been made aware of this. That would've been a disservice to me, as a viewer of his channel. It wouldn't have made sense.

  14. #194
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    You could have been informed if the issue went on. But instead you where informed right away, it went viral and now the companies name is in shambles over their spat with ONE guy on ONE channel. If it's and buts and all that though.

    Nintendo on the other hand auto-claim copyright to any video on youtube that uses any audio or video from their games. SquareEnix attempt to do it as well. Sega got a bunch of channels closed because they started claiming copyright on Let's Plays of games.

    I hope that in true servitude to the channel and the idea, that you are boycotting all of these companies as long as they continue these actions.
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  15. #195
    Network Hub Maurish's Avatar
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    It seems like he did try to sort it out privately.
    From twitter:
    "Well, cat is out of the bag since someone on Reddit found it. My Day One: Garrys Incident video was copyright flagged by the devs"
    "Its annoying that this had to come out, we were trying to solve it privately, but hey, copyright claims are public viewing on Youtube."
    He mentions having contacted them two days before it was discovered by Reddit and gave them time to sort it out till Monday. They gave him a ridiculous answer and since it was already viral, he made a video explaining the issue.

  16. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    I beg to differ. If a company does things like this, the last thing I want is to not be informed of it. I don't want to support them, I don't want to buy their game, I want nothing to do with them.

    Had TB just quietly resolved this, I would not have been made aware of this. That would've been a disservice to me, as a viewer of his channel. It wouldn't have made sense.
    I agree 100%. It's an absolutely ludicrous position to say that the best way to deal with a dishonest (or vindictive) company is to play by their rules and keep it under cover. That's exactly what they want. That's exactly what they were trying to do. When someone does something like this, the most effective way to deal with it is to make it public and let public pressure work its course.

  17. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You could have been informed if the issue went on. But instead you where informed right away
    You say that like that's a bad thing. I'm glad I was informed right away!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Nintendo on the other hand auto-claim copyright to any video on youtube that uses any audio or video from their games. SquareEnix attempt to do it as well. Sega got a bunch of channels closed because they started claiming copyright on Let's Plays of games.

    I hope that in true servitude to the channel and the idea, that you are boycotting all of these companies as long as they continue these actions.
    I think I'm adult enough to decide by myself what to do on a case by case basis, thank you very much. I do appreciate however being made aware of all the elements instead of some things going down secretly because some people dislike the man or something.

  18. #198
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fumarole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Granath View Post
    I agree 100%. It's an absolutely ludicrous position to say that the best way to deal with a dishonest (or vindictive) company is to play by their rules and keep it under cover. That's exactly what they want. That's exactly what they were trying to do. When someone does something like this, the most effective way to deal with it is to make it public and let public pressure work its course.
    Yup, that's the one advantage consumers have. To willingly give that up is madness.
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  19. #199
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Drake Sigar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    You could have been informed if the issue went on. But instead you where informed right away, it went viral and now the companies name is in shambles over their spat.
    What Maurish said. Every popular guy/gal can’t be held responsible for their overzealous fans. I feel sorry for the company, but at the same time everyone who has even minor experience with the Internet could’ve told them exactly what would happen as assuredly as putting your bare hand on a hot stove.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Nintendo on the other hand auto-claim copyright to any video on youtube that uses any audio or video from their games. SquareEnix attempt to do it as well. Sega got a bunch of channels closed because they started claiming copyright on Let's Plays of games.
    I hope that in true servitude to the channel and the idea, that you are boycotting all of these companies as long as they continue these actions.
    And where does that end?

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by trjp View Post
    Laws are created by politicians at the request (bribery) of wealthy individuals and corporations - to enable those people not only to remain wealthy and powerful but to increase that wealth and power.

    They are not created so that our society can better commentate on itself - indeed, that's probably one of the things those people would rather we didn't do!
    This is true but it's not a reason for apathy or just keeping quiet about laws you don't like. Politicians still need to get re-elected and this occasionally forces them to listen to ordinary people even if they don't really want to.

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