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  1. #501
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    And now we have a fat white guy who is being treated like shit on a huge scale and who took a very reasonable stance against it... and he is being vilified and told to get out of the industry if he can't take the abuse.
    Being told he should consider leaving if he can't handle negative comments that are inherent to his job is not vilification. That'd be calling him a vile sexist or something like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by strange headache View Post
    There is an intrinsic difference between saying "TB is a fucking douchebag because I can't stand his voice" and saying "I don't like watching him, because I don't like his voice". It is the former, not the latter that is putting TB down. Just like there is a difference between criticism and constructive criticism.
    The mistake here is that you're expecting people to be rational - they don't have to be, there's no requirement for dislike to be rational or logical. That's how they're going to express themselves and attack the other person because they don't like them. That's going to happen no matter what you do, and if you're in a public position (like TB is in) then you need to mitigate against it, or you're going to be destroyed. Hence why I suggested he seriously considers stepping down.

    Also, as I've alluded to already, it's clear that even on this very forum we're willing to attack the person because of the action provided we can justify it as being morally acceptable. We'll call out misogynists, and sexists, and the MRA groups as vile human beings devoid of empathy and possessing horrible values, but we can justify that because they're sexists so who cares?
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  2. #502
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    We'll call out misogynists, and sexists, and the MRA groups as vile human beings devoid of empathy and possessing horrible values, but we can justify that because they're sexists so who cares?
    Sorry. What?
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  3. #503
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    Sorry. What?
    So wait, you're trying to tell me that the general mood on RPS is that misogynists and the MRA groups aren't vile?

    Well shit, you sure did hide that one pretty well!
    Nalano's Law - As an online gaming discussion regarding restrictions grows longer, the probability of a post likening the topic to the Democratic People's Republic of Korea approaches one.

  4. #504
    Lesser Hivemind Node RobF's Avatar
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    The general mood with a few notable exceptions, clearly.
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  5. #505
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    If this were just a few years ago I would have called you a moron for thinking anyone would ever put up with that.

    Then bitcoin happened, and now people will clearly go through any hurdles if they think it is hip and someone gets rich doing it. :p
    Except that Bit-coin is a logistical nightmare, whereas using encryption to create secure, heirarchical access to data rather than usable/valuable currency is a piece of cake.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  6. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    I wouldn't mind seeing something similar online. I don't need to know that Gwath is Jim Bob Smith of Manchester England. But having some way of knowing that he is the same Gwath I played Warhammer Online with would go a long way toward encouraging a sense of "I should not be a complete asshole as people will remember it".
    Even that is tricky though as a lot of people want to keep their online identities somewhat disparate. If you're posting on The Guardian you probably don't want someone to turn around and say "well what would you know, you have 1000 posts on the World of Warcraft forums, clearly you're an unemployed loser". Equally you might not want all your Twitter followers to know you're a regular on FetLife.

    So then you need to have methods for people to opt out and exclude themselves, at which point the trolls opt out of everything and we start again.

    Vaguely back to the TotalBiscuit thing, I think when people say 'TotalBiscuit is an arsehole' or whatever... they're referring to the guy in the videos. It's very, very rare when a performer (and that's what TB is) is the same person 'in character' as they are in real life. When someone insults him, what they're actually saying is 'the character of TotalBiscuit' is an arsehole' or 'if TotalBiscuit is exactly the same in his real life as he is on his videos, then he's an arsehole'. As a performer, you need to recongize that people who see your work are just seeing one facet of you, they don't know you, and hence their judgement isn't valid. And honestly, if TB constantly acts in real life as this larger than life, judgmental, loud, aggressive guy then - well it's hard to argue you wouldn't find him to be an arse, surely.

    I dislike the guy as a performer, can't stand him. In reality, in the real world we'd probably get on quite well, as I think we're quite similar.

    The thing is some casters are obsessed with this idea that they're always 100% truthful, and that they're 'honest' and their on screen persona is just unadulterated 'them'. But if they're honest, it never is. But claiming that sort of thing really opens you up to these sort of attacks.

  7. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Pretty much. It was pretty pathetic how so many people reacted to that where they were consciously siding with people they admit were assholes just because it was anti-TB.

    I expect at least SOME cognitive dissonance, not just outright "I don't like these people but I hate that fat british guy more"
    Wow, is that the perceived view of that whole debable right now then? That's how potentially dangerous this whole cult of personality thing is. For a lot of us, the incident between those two wasn't the big guy hitting out at the little guy who is just trying to have some fun putting some videos up on the internet. This was a small-scale indie developer, who make a lot less money than TB makes putting out his videos, challenging his right to be making money off a 'product' that was 50% their work.

    It's no longer EA filing takedowns against people doing it for a hobby. It's a hobbyist filing one against someone who makes a really nice living from making those videos. Which finally framed the discussion in such a way that some people went 'hang on, maybe they have a point'. I mean that's the flip side of this whole thing really. Whenever anyone objects to something TB does, he can just hand-wave it as being 'haters', even if it's legit.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    But as has been repeated fairly often there's a fundamental and incredibly important difference between bashing a person and a project.
    Is 'TotalBiscuit' not a 'project' of John Bain though? If I make a game, or write a book, and insert a character based on me and named after me into the game/book, and that character is annoying and awful, are people not allowed to point that out?

    To me that's one of those things you just take as read online. There's a "[Based on his videos and podcasts] I think TotalBiscuit is an arse" unspoken thing there. Because obviously it's that because you probably haven't met him. If you had, you'd say so.

    Just like every post on a forum is assumed to have an [In my opinion] in front of it - if you're quoting an actual fact you'd say so.

  8. #508
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    So your saying TB is the Jeremy Clarkson of the internet?
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    So your saying TB is the Jeremy Clarkson of the internet?
    Gods, no. I mean, actually being someone who listens to his video, I've never even found his persona (certainly of the last few years, maybe it used to be more skewed?) Much of a persona. I mean, let's put it this way. He puts up videos on the internet. And sometimes I disagree with them. And yet I think he put his point across more reasonably and amicably, and more well worded than 9/10 times I hear the same viewpoint expressed. And he's supposed to be some sort of caustic internet asshole?

    I mean, full disclosure, I am a pretty big fan of his videos. (gasp) I'm even inclined to think he's pretty straight up, because I've never seen someone aim criticism at their own content or publish retractions as readily or as openly as he does. And OK some people don't like him, which is whatever, of course that happens. But Jeremy Clarkson of the internet? Really? That's just mean. :P

  10. #510
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus LTK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deano2099 View Post
    Wow, is that the perceived view of that whole debable right now then? That's how potentially dangerous this whole cult of personality thing is. For a lot of us, the incident between those two wasn't the big guy hitting out at the little guy who is just trying to have some fun putting some videos up on the internet. This was a small-scale indie developer, who make a lot less money than TB makes putting out his videos, challenging his right to be making money off a 'product' that was 50% their work.

    It's no longer EA filing takedowns against people doing it for a hobby. It's a hobbyist filing one against someone who makes a really nice living from making those videos. Which finally framed the discussion in such a way that some people went 'hang on, maybe they have a point'. I mean that's the flip side of this whole thing really. Whenever anyone objects to something TB does, he can just hand-wave it as being 'haters', even if it's legit.
    An indie developer who is selling a game on Steam is not exactly the same as a hobbyist, and the idea that a developer making less money than the person whose job it is to criticise them means that they should not be critiqued is just deranged. For one, the critique itself is the product, not the thing being critiqued - fair use and all that - and for two, how do you even know who's making more money than who?

  11. #511
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    But Jeremy Clarkson of the internet? Really? That's just mean. :P
    Which shows how an audience can have opposite reactions to a celebrity/presenter/video producer. I'd assume all of Jeremy's actions were purely for show on TV and he was a nice guy in real life (so I generally like his videos, as I assume he is playing the fool to the camera). But others view him as the scum of the earth.

    I'd assume JC does have thick skin. He even revels in the posts/twitters and such like at times. LOL.
    It is a technical difference, but's there none the less.

  12. #512
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    Quote Originally Posted by TechnicalBen View Post
    I'd assume JC does have thick skin. He even revels in the posts/twitters and such like at times. LOL.
    It's not even having a thick skin, it's acknowledging the simple fact that those people commenting don't know you. They only know the you from your work. That's never the actual you, it's at best a very small, selective facet of you.

  13. #513
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gwathdring View Post
    Except that Bit-coin is a logistical nightmare, whereas using encryption to create secure, heirarchical access to data rather than usable/valuable currency is a piece of cake.
    My point was more that people actually DO seem willing to do convoluted things that most tech-savvy people I know bitch about being forced to do. It is a strange world.
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  14. #514
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    My point was more that people actually DO seem willing to do convoluted things that most tech-savvy people I know bitch about being forced to do. It is a strange world.
    I know, it's really weird finally being able to feel optimistic about the future of a secure digital world. :D
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

  15. #515
    Network Hub darkChozo's Avatar
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    If anyone's interested, here's a bit from an oldish podcast where Totalbiscuit and some other Youtubers talk about dealing with comments and general Internet pressure. It's informal and a bit rambly, but hey, it's relevant and maybe a bit interesting.

    Also, I don't think a reliable way of identifying people would really help anything. People don't avoid punishment for bad behavior because I don't know if the gwarthdring here is the same gwarthdring that yelled at me yesterday; they do so because they're often just a voice in a gigantic crowd; and because the "real" social pressures that you'd feel for acting out are way more muted in text form.

  16. #516
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gwathdring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkChozo View Post
    Also, I don't think a reliable way of identifying people would really help anything. People don't avoid punishment for bad behavior because I don't know if the gwarthdring here is the same gwarthdring that yelled at me yesterday; they do so because they're often just a voice in a gigantic crowd; and because the "real" social pressures that you'd feel for acting out are way more muted in text form.
    Hmm. My understand of sociology suggests that while you make a very important point, reputation is indeed quite powerful. Obviously, you don't always want person X to like you--but you care what your reputation, your identity IS.

    We shouldn't forget, though, the power of crowds. I'd actually come from the inverse angle compared to your argument--people in crowds are supremely affected by the behavior and the attitude of the crowd around them. You are beholden first to your immediate environment, then to the broader. Just as people tend to care more about their family and friends than people who live half-way around the world, people who are actively participating online are temporarily more intimately connected with their Internet locality than with their physical one. If we want to change online behavior, we have to change online expectations, online consequences, and so forth. That's the most immediate source of behavioral influence and whatnot in this context.
    I think of [the Internet] as a grisly raw steak laid out on a porcelain benchtop in the sun, covered in chocolate hazelnut sauce. In the background plays Stardustís Music Sounds Better With You. Thereís lots of fog. --tomeoftom

    You ruined his point by putting it in context thatís cheating -bull0

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