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  1. #1
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Cards Against Consent

    Referring to this article:

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014...inst-humanity/

    Discuss away.

    I'll start by saying that I think the term "Rape Culture" is the stupidest buzzword Ive ever heard, and it ignores all the other times people are being forced to do something against their consent.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Ive been reading up on this and our attitude to rape in society is pretty terrible sometimes.

    Relevant Film Crit Hulk Post:
    http://badassdigest.com/2013/11/14/w...lk-about-rape/

  3. #3
    Lesser Hivemind Node Harlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    I'll start by saying that I think the term "Rape Culture" is the stupidest buzzword Ive ever heard, and it ignores all the other times people are being forced to do something against their consent.
    I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret asking this, but: could you expand on that at all?

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    I remember a while ago when I said I wouldn't buy Fez because I can't stand Phil Fish and his pretentious, self-important attitude, and a bunch of people said "Oh but you shouldn't hate the game because of who made it!" and I can't help but wonder if I can apply that same logic here... but that isn't really the point I want to make.

    On topic though is that it is not yet clear whether or not the man in question is guilty of rape. I'm not going to condemn someone over an accusation without proof - and witness testimony which can't be verified isn't, on its own, proof. The man's own statements about his versions of events apparently aren't sufficient evidence for the RPS writer though! The phrasing is clear there - her word against his negates his defence, but not the other way around apparently (at least that's the suggestion). His version of events is about as equally valid as the accuser's in my eyes, neither are independently verified, both could be true, but neither is supported by good evidence. And neither are particularly detailed.

    Whether he did or did not do something isn't clear from what we know about the case - but what I do know is that he'll undergo trial by social media, where he is definitely going to be found guilty and his name will be destroyed. Even though the RPS writer says he adopts an 'innocent until proven guilty' stance, it's clear from the wording that he's already made up his mind. Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't, we don't know yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by RPS
    Why are no gaming sites covering any of it? [...] The real reason why no-one is talking about this story is how the fuck do we talk about this story?
    The reason nobody's talking about this story is that it's a Facebook accusation of a 10 year old crime, which may or may not have happened, which might end up going through the courts. It has nothing to do with nobody wanting to talk about it or not knowing how to approach it, and everything to do with there being insufficient information to make a factual story out of it! Here's what the entire story is: Woman accuses man (the developer of CAH) of rape. That's as much fact as you can find. Anything else is an impassioned tangent unsupported by fact and entirely supposition... and if the claim later turns out to be false, you've inflamed the situation needlessly and condemned the innocent.

    And before anybody jumps on me going "Oh but you're punishing victims from speaking out!" no, I'm not - I have no problem with making accusations and as the RPS article says, false accusations are so rare as to be a non-issue. But trial by social media is never going to end well, and a respectable games journalism outfit like RPS shouldn't be participating in it, nor inflaming it.
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  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    The phrasing is clear there - her word against his negates his defence, but not the other way around apparently (at least that's the suggestion). His version of events is about as equally valid as the accuser's in my eyes, neither are independently verified, both could be true, but neither is supported by good evidence. And neither are particularly detailed.


    I have no idea about this case so I'm not going to comment on it. But in our society a tendency that happens is that His word against hers...the woman loses out. Especially in college Rape. College rape is very insidious, its that oh shes drunk and she seems up for it I'm going to have sex with her. The man thinks theres a Grey Area when it is totally a black and White situation. A man can totally convince himself that he is not raping the woman even if he is using Roofies and things like that. Its a horrible thing, and a man can get away with it because people think there is a Gray Area as well, or even worse that it was the woman's fault. You shouldn't of drunk so much, you should have watched your drink more closely. This is a totally horrible thing to say and it it is even worse then that if you really think about it.

  6. #6
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    We have courts for a reason let's let them work and avoid influencing potential jurors with amateur prosecution/defence.

    That game sounds terrible, no need for a boycott here.

    Edit:

    @ Xercies My word vs yours loses out to reasonable doubt and innocent until proven guilty. It's an ugly system but all the alternatives just as bad or worse. Imagine we assume guilt by default.
    Last edited by Heliocentric; 16-07-2014 at 09:14 AM.
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  7. #7
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harlander View Post
    I'm pretty sure I'm going to regret asking this, but: could you expand on that at all?
    No problem: the problem is more profound than "just rape", and dont get me wrong, thats already bad enough, but there is a huge lack of concern for consent in all matters. Thats how kids get abused (nonsexually), how people get turned into slaves (actual ones), how anyone gets raped and doesnt care about it, etc.

    The problem is with consent and the lack of any regard for it. If we solve that problem, we solve everything, ever.

    Hearing the word rape culture thrown around makes me want to throw up, because its just another stupid fucking hashtag away from OMG YOLO
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  8. #8
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    [/COLOR]I have no idea about this case so I'm not going to comment on it. But in our society a tendency that happens is that His word against hers...the woman loses out. Especially in college Rape.
    That's irrelevant for the courts where, at least in most Western societies, intoxication isn't a factor when deciding consent (i.e. "she was drunk so she was asking for it" isn't even a factor). As Heliocentric says, innocence until guilt is proven is still the basis of our legal system.

    All I said was that neither account is more factual - they have both the same weighting. If I punched you, and nobody except both of us saw it, and I say that I didn't punch you and you say that I do, without knowing anything else about the case, how can a third party decide who's story was correct? You can't. It's reprehensible to think that the courts should assume guilt because of a backwards social attitude - one which is being challenged today, and one in which the trial by social media will trample over in its haste to get to the opposite extreme of guilt by accusation only, perpetuated by small but noisy groups of people who have a total disregard for fact.

    Again, what we know about this case so far is that this woman has claimed she was raped by this man, and he denies it. No guilt or innocence can be definitively proven on the basis of that alone. It's worthy of investigation, but if you think it's right to assume he's guilty because somebody would say that date-rape is fine, then you're just the opposite side of the extremist coin.
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  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    We have courts for a reason let's let them work and avoid influencing potential jurors with amateur prosecution/defence.

    That game sounds terrible, no need for a boycott here.

    Edit:

    @ Xercies My word vs yours loses out to reasonable doubt and innocent until proven guilty. It's an ugly system but all the alternatives just as bad or worse. Imagine we assume guilt by default.
    We should boycott the game because it is terrible.

    I can't really say much about it, it's very he said, she said. People are looking for Max to use this as a launch pad for a discussion but really he's just trying to defend himself. It's easy to point the finger at him and say "he's not doing enough for my cause" but realistically if someone accused me of raping them the first thing I'd be worried about is clearing my name before it gets tarnished and my reputation dragged through the mud.

    The only thing I find funny about this at all is that Max actually said this in response to the tweet
    "We assumed this was someone making a tasteless joke, and I replied to tell him that it wasn’t funny"
    but yet having jokes about rape, murder, suicide, genocide, religion and everything else is ok. "Lance Armstrongs missing testicle", boy that's a hoot, but "Max Tempkin raped someone" is a step too far.

    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    That's irrelevant for the courts where, at least in most Western societies, intoxication isn't a factor when deciding consent (i.e. "she was drunk so she was asking for it" isn't even a factor). As Heliocentric says, innocence until guilt is proven is still the basis of our legal system.
    There have been several rape cases in the states which used "look at how she was dressed, she was asking for it" and "she was drunk at the time so she was asking for it". I agree with the rest of your post though. He's innocent until proven otherwise.
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  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    No guilt or innocence can be definitively proven on the basis of that alone. It's worthy of investigation, but if you think it's right to assume he's guilty because somebody would say that date-rape is fine, then you're just the opposite side of the extremist coin.


    I agree I say we can't ever say one thing or another with this. I was just using it as a springboard for a different discussion really. Which is the best that can happen. The worst that can happen and I'm already seeing it already, is assuming things. There are some people assuming that she is just another crazy woman wanting to take down a big celebrity. There are some people assuming that the guy is a serial rapist. Both are terrible assumptions. We also don't have both sides of the story, we don't have the womans side of things we just have the accusation so thats also something that we should have before we talk about this if we talk about this at all. Its for a court to decide, the problem is the crime if there was one would be nearly impossible to prove after 10 years.

    (Now talking general to make a discussion)Is that really justice? What if the woman was raped, basically the worst thing has happened and the guy gets to go away scot free and even successful. I agree with my heart about what Helio said but in our horrible system a lot of times it just doesn't work like that. Sometimes in Rape the perpetrator gets away. How do we deal with that?

    As for the game...its alright its a good laugh. Also I dasagree with Rab about a game where you use your own creativity would be better. Not everyone is quick enough to make a good joke or good enough. Cards Against Humanity democratises joke telling. Even the most rubbish joke teller can make a joke that will be remembered, even the most gifted can create a stinker. Its pretty good in that sense, I just wish it was anything but sick Frankie Boyle Jokes, because when I play it I usually like to go for more surreal jokes but its totally not that game. But its gotten popular because of the sick joke factor so what can you do?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    No problem: the problem is more profound than "just rape", and dont get me wrong, thats already bad enough, but there is a huge lack of concern for consent in all matters. Thats how kids get abused (nonsexually), how people get turned into slaves (actual ones), how anyone gets raped and doesnt care about it, etc.

    The problem is with consent and the lack of any regard for it. If we solve that problem, we solve everything, ever.

    Hearing the word rape culture thrown around makes me want to throw up, because its just another stupid fucking hashtag away from OMG YOLO
    To use the time-honoured medium of the car analogy, you may as well say that there's no point tackling drink-drinking separately from speeding, separately from disobeying stop signs, separately from running red lights; the problem is just "bad driving" so let's solve that and we'll be golden. Well, yes, these are all types of bad driving, but they're so different from each other that you can't possibly lump them together in one catch-all category.

    Plus part of the problem with drink-driving isn't that people just think "I'm going to get really drunk then go for a drive"; they might think "I've only had a couple of drinks so it'll be okay", or "I was drunk last night but I'm sober this morning so it'll be okay", or whatever. Similarly, not every rapist thinks "I'm going out to rape someone tonight"; they might think "Well she hasn't said 'no' so it'll be okay", or "She was definitely up for it before she passed out so it'll be okay". Someone driving over the limit might not think of themselves as a drink-driver but they kinda are, in the same way that someone who hasn't actually got consent from someone who's too fucked-up to say "yes" might not think of themselves as a rapist.

    And besides, rape is different from other forms of non-consent in that, for example, people being kept as literal slaves generally aren't blamed for it. Nobody ever says "Well no wonder someone kidnapped them into slavery, they were always such a helpful person before, what did they expect, being nice to people like that?" or "If they didn't want to be kidnapped into slavery then they shouldn't have got drunk, everyone knows that slavers can't help themselves from enslaving people, it's just human nature" or, I dunno, whatever. Rape is kind of its own thing in that very rarely are victims of other crimes held accountable for what's happened to them. People will, it seem, fight tooth-and-nail to show that someone's rape was their own fault. That's rape culture right there.

    Sorry that isn't super-laser-targeted against your specific point but my keyboard kind of ran away with me. I think it kinda covers some of the bases about rape vs other situations without consent, and how "rape culture" is a thing.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    "If they didn't want to be kidnapped into slavery then they shouldn't have got drunk, everyone knows that slavers can't help themselves from enslaving people, it's just human nature"


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  13. #13
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disconnect View Post
    Sorry that isn't super-laser-targeted against your specific point but my keyboard kind of ran away with me. I think it kinda covers some of the bases about rape vs other situations without consent, and how "rape culture" is a thing.
    no, its a popular phrase, targeting too little, since its a general attitude towards life rather than aimed at OMG WOMENS SHUD FUCK MORE HYUK HYUK SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT.

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    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

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    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    (Now talking general to make a discussion)Is that really justice? What if the woman was raped, basically the worst thing has happened and the guy gets to go away scot free and even successful. I agree with my heart about what Helio said but in our horrible system a lot of times it just doesn't work like that. Sometimes in Rape the perpetrator gets away. How do we deal with that?
    The only way to deal with it is to find better ways to determine guilt. There is no perfect way to deliver justice without knowing whether the accused is guilty or not. IMHO, the way things work is the best we can do without certainty of guilt. It's better to have some walk free than to punish innocent people. It sucks, but it's better than the alternative.

    As for this case: From what I gather, it wasn't a case of severe rape (I don't know much English legalese). Since it occurred ten years ago, chances are the statute of limitations is up, so even if she has a case, it probably won't get anywhere.

    What I see coming from this is him getting a tarnished reputation (deservedly so or otherwise) and probably also become a rallying beacon for male privilege activists. If he's guilty and this makes her feel like some degree of justice has been dealt, then good. If he didn't do anything wrong, it's horrible and despicable. If he did do it (or something), but she doesn't feel better from what redemption she gets, it's a bit grey IMHO.

  15. #15
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    there is no severe rape. Theres rape+assault or murder, but rape is always just rape. Unless youre talking about child rape.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    there is no severe rape. Theres rape+assault or murder, but rape is always just rape. Unless youre talking about child rape.
    No there's also Sexual Assault, which is a broader term rape is included within. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault

    It's a technicality but still best to be clear. Under British law if a penis didn't enter a body it is sexual assault not rape, though that shouldn't detract from how serious a crime it is of course.

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    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Zephro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    The man's own statements about his versions of events apparently aren't sufficient evidence for the RPS writer though! The phrasing is clear there - her word against his negates his defence, but not the other way around apparently (at least that's the suggestion). His version of events is about as equally valid as the accuser's in my eyes, neither are independently verified, both could be true, but neither is supported by good evidence. And neither are particularly detailed.
    That is a very interesting / questionable reading of Rab's article, I don't think he said that either point of view trumped the other in any possible way. He was very careful not to infact.

  18. #18
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    That is a very interesting / questionable reading of Rab's article, I don't think he said that either point of view trumped the other in any possible way. He was very careful not to infact.
    Yep, not sure how it's read any other when when Rab says this

    "First, let me be totally clear. I do not know if these accusations are true. I’m a firm believer in the old “innocent until proven guilty” thing. But I also don’t agree with Temkin when he says that “There is no evidence for this story.” Witness testimony is, in fact, evidence. Sure, his word is evidence too – but the existence of his word doesn’t negate her word as evidence. That’s not how it works."
    Max is the one saying that his word negates hers. Rab is saying that neither person negates the other.
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  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    ...the problem is the crime if there was one would be nearly impossible to prove after 10 years.

    Well, it didn't stop then convicting Rolf Harris... then again enough people came forward to sway the balance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    I agree with my heart about what Helio said but in our horrible system a lot of times it just doesn't work like that. Sometimes in Rape the perpetrator gets away. How do we deal with that?

    Sometimes in murder the criminal gets away with it - because justice isn't perfect and unfortunately there are times where the determination of guilt is remarkably difficult to determine. It's one of the arguments against the death penalty - are you absolutely certain that he did it? The extremists who killed that soldier definitely did do it because there's hard evidence to prove it, so you can be certain of guilt there. But in a case like this where the evidence (so far as we know) is entirely "He said, she said" you're not going to know for sure. The alternative is assumption of guilt on the basis of an accusation alone, and that's a terrifying prospect. Which is why it's important for rape cases to be reported promptly - not 10 years later.

    Having seen a few victims first-hand (sometimes as the first point of contact) I know that they can find it incredibly difficult and the psychological trauma and fear of the response can make that difficult, but after 10 years... well, unless you can find something else to corroborate that story, do you really want to send someone to jail just on the chance that they did it?



    Quote Originally Posted by Zephro View Post
    That is a very interesting / questionable reading of Rab's article, I don't think he said that either point of view trumped the other in any possible way. He was very careful not to infact.
    Perhaps I was a bit harsh with that, but the article still seems to be pointing the finger at Temkin. Yes Rab's right that neither negates the other, but if that's the case this is isn't worth reporting beyond "Person X has made allegation against Person Y". Instead it's a launch pad to attack Temkin, who might not have done anything wrong, including taking a line that Temkin has said about rape-culture and using it as some kind of example of being complicit with it with a tone of implied guilt as a result. And that goes back to how I answered the question posed: Why isn't anyone talking about this? Because there's really nothing to say about it yet.
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  20. #20
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    When I read the article I was mostly annoyed by this:

    "Witness testimony is, in fact, evidence. Sure, his word is evidence too – but the existence of his word doesn’t negate her word as evidence. That’s not how it works."


    Why? Well the human mind as a witness is horrible, hence why you are required to have physical evidence, NASA has a very specific procedure after incidents, going into a lockdown where each engineers has to write down his immediate recollection of events without talking to eachother. And even this is of limited value. Remembering a thought actually changes the actual data stored in the mind.

    Note that I am not sure how the law works were this event took place, but here you are required to have evidence other then pure witness testimony's.
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