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  1. #241
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Yes, hail democracy!!

    For the sake of democracy and justice, UN immediately occupies Chechnya with international peace keeping force, disarms all Russian forces there and then holds a referendum to determine if Chechnya remains in Russian Federation.

    Hell yeah.
    In what way is this democracy?

    The poll was announced 10 days ago.

    The military of another country occupied a great portion of the region in question.

    The party officials have not been able to even enter the area in question.

    This is not nearly the same as say Quebec legislators making votes to leave Canada. A process which if truly democratic should take years.

    I am not questioning the will of the people of Crimea, or the voters, who may majority still choose this path regardless.

    But that does not mean this process is sound or truly fair or legitimate to all parties involved.
    Last edited by rockman29; 17-03-2014 at 02:44 PM.

  2. #242
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    snip
    I believe he was sarcastic.

    Really... Chechnya should make her voice heard now and try to get own referendum. Just to fuck with Putin.

  3. #243
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    In what way is this democracy?
    If a region is permitted for self-determination, say, Quebec or Scotland, then, yes, your standard applies.

    But Ukraine does not permit Crimea people to secede to begin with. Russian military presence is the protection they have right now to hold this referendum. Without Russian military presence (oh, I am politically incorrect, they are "pro-Russia militia formed by Crimea volunteers"), this referendum wouldn't have been held in the first place.

    If you are questioning the validity of the referendum, you fall into Putin's trap. He exactly wants us to question it. Such concern exactly confirms the legitimacy of Crimea's choice to secede, while such legitimacy should not exist in the first place.

    Yet the main issue here should be: self-determination does not apply here. Crimea is not a colony (I am aware that it is an autonomous republic, so what? Chechnya is an autonomous republic, too). Crimea people are Ukrainian citizens as any other Ukrainian citizens. If they take effective measures to secession, they are actually guilty of treason. Yes, those who vote in favor of secession is guilty of treason. Whether the Ukraine's government pursue justice on them is Ukraine's internal affairs though.

    How to deal with a whole population being "convicted" of high treason? Russia itself shouldn't feel new to this. Where was the majority of Tatar population originally in Crimea before the Great War?

    Remember, no state of the USA can choose to secede from the USA, too.

    Ironically, as I know, the former USSR's constitution did permit self-determination of the Soviet republics, which provided the legitimacy of its own demise.
    Last edited by squirrel; 17-03-2014 at 03:05 PM.

  4. #244
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Military would not be necessary to deploy if this was a proper democratic process. From either side.

    No one is convicting anyone of treason. If you want to paint everyone as red vs. blue, this discussion will go nowhere.

    The fact is this resolution was far too rapid to guarantee any sort of fair and democratic process.

  5. #245
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no it isnt, nothing about this conflict is fucking clear. why do you keep believing random shit someone says? You dont know any facts, nor does anyone here with the possible except of alexius, and even then.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  6. #246
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    No one is convicting anyone of treason. If you want to paint everyone as red vs. blue, this discussion will go nowhere.
    Are you aware of a recent Ukraine's Interim government's legislation (in last month I think) prohibiting Ukraine's citizens from holding foreign nation's (s') passport(s) or being guilty to receive criminal record and face a 10-year imprisonment at maximum? If you were a Ukraine citizen holding British passport (yes, a western, not a Russian one), you might be held guilty in Ukraine, too.

    This may not be a wise decision since this is exactly the legislation alienating many who originally supported the new government, but legally and morally, this is perfectly sound legislation given this extreme circumstance.

    Of course this is a confrontation. It is ideally people can settle differences through compromises, but this crisis is certainly not one of them.

    But again, whether the Ukraine's government pursues justice on them is Ukraine's internal politics.

  7. #247
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Again, I'm not defending any one country's practices. This entire ordeal is a clusterfuck of incredible proportions for which relations and trade between Russia and EU/US is going to suffer. Visa restrictions, asset freezes, the laundry list of bullshit that happens every time.

    That's not the point.

    All I have stated is that this "democratic" resolution has not taken place under conditions for which anyone should deem as fair or proper.

    It is hardly an example of democracy in action, that is the singular point I was contesting you on.

    There are far too many special interests taking place with all this enormous international presence as well as how fast this has all happened, for any group to truly make sense of wtf is going on outside of people in the area itself.
    Last edited by rockman29; 17-03-2014 at 03:29 PM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Are you aware of a recent Ukraine's Interim government's legislation (in last month I think) prohibiting Ukraine's citizens from holding foreign nation's (s') passport(s) or being guilty to receive criminal record and face a 10-year imprisonment at maximum? If you were a Ukraine citizen holding British passport (yes, a western, not a Russian one), you might be held guilty in Ukraine, too.
    Do you have any reliable source for this? Quick search shows that there is a proposed law (#4116 on Feb 07, before the Interim government) to introduce a criminal responsibility for not informing about getting a second passport. The law is yet to be voted according to the Parliament site.

  9. #249
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexius View Post
    Do you have any reliable source for this? Quick search shows that there is a proposed law (#4116 on Feb 07, before the Interim government) to introduce a criminal responsibility for not informing about getting a second passport. The law is yet to be voted according to the Parliament site.
    Oops, I read that on Chinese media. Damn they must have made some poor Ukrainian-to-Chinese translation. Sorry for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    It is hardly an example of democracy in action, that is the singular point I was contesting you on.
    Seriously, do the length of preparation of vote, propaganda and the like matter here?

    Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russians. If the referendum's result was in favor of retaining of Crimea within Ukraine (reaffirming 1992 constitution), then we have to question the fairness of the referendum.

    However, we should not, given any circumstance, question the validity of a voting which is illegitimate in the first place. Putin didn't commit any mistake to let those rigging be found. It's the opposite, he wants his "wrongdoing in the voting" be found, so that we question the fairness of the voting, then that is game over, we are affirming the legitimacy of the choice of secession of Crimea.

    As to your key point of Russian military presence, remember, NATO did that to Kosovo in 1999, and there was a genocide by the Serbs against Albanians there. Without that military intervention Albanians in Kosovo would have been all forcefully removed from their homeland or even slaughtered. This provide the legal foundation for self-determination of Kosovo, so yes, foreign military intervention to support a self-determination act has legal foundation. Only that here Crimea people have absolute no legal foundation for self-determination.

  10. #250
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexius View Post
    Do you have any reliable source for this? Quick search shows that there is a proposed law (#4116 on Feb 07, before the Interim government) to introduce a criminal responsibility for not informing about getting a second passport. The law is yet to be voted according to the Parliament site.
    Can you provide any information on passed or proposed laws/legislation etc. which can be considered as targeting russian minority/eastern provinces/Russian interests in the region?
    I know google can tell me but you would be a more credible source of info.

    I wonder whether I have to inform my government about getting a second passport from different country...

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russians.
    only sixty percent. so not really mostly but a majority.

    also
    Free Tibet!

  11. #251
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Yes, those things are generally required in free and fair elections. Usually, the parties and groups wanting to contest are allowed to speak in the area to advertise their cause preceding an election. So yes, the time does matter.

    And this is not Bosnia/Serbia. As far as I understand so far, the Ukrainian military did not act with impunity against the population of Crimea.

    Whether or not Crimea has a history of being part of Russia in the past, or it's population is dominated by whoever, doesn't make this a shining example of democratic process.

  12. #252
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    I hope this has been mentioned before (I haven't read the whole thread), but I'll mention it again in any case: the only reason "Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russians" is because Stalin deported (and mostly murdered) most non-Russians from the region in the 1940s. This alone makes any "democratic referendum" incredibly complicated.

  13. #253
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faldrath View Post
    I hope this has been mentioned before (I haven't read the whole thread), but I'll mention it again in any case: the only reason "Crimea is mostly populated by ethnic Russians" is because Stalin deported (and mostly murdered) most non-Russians from the region in the 1940s. This alone makes any "democratic referendum" incredibly complicated.
    That raises the interesting point that also tends to impact the whole "Israel and Palestine" thing:

    At what point do we consider the world as it is, not the world as it should/could be?

    Stalin did MANY horrible things, but (for the most part) Russia is a very different country now than it was under Stalin (they have their own new set of human rights violations...). So regardless of how they got there, most of the people in the Crimea were born there or are comparatively recent immigrants. For the moment, let's set aside the question of if they SHOULD be able to vote for their own independence (by becoming dependent on a different nation...) and assume they can: Should the people of a land be penalized for something their grandparents (and the grandparents of the foreign nation they want to join...) did? And if so, how many generations is the cutoff?
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  14. #254
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Faldrath's Avatar
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    Well, as I said, it's incredibly complicated and I don't have an answer (I think we should both consider the world as it is and as it could be, but that's another discussion).

    My gut feeling is that if Crimea does indeed join Russia (and that will likely happen short of a war no one really wants), Stalin will be laughing from his grave, since that's exactly what he planned. And that's incredibly depressing.

  15. #255
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    But Ukraine does not permit Crimea people to secede to begin with. (...) Crimea people are Ukrainian citizens as any other Ukrainian citizens. If they take effective measures to secession, they are actually guilty of treason.
    Imagine that, a central government forbidding secession! That has never happened before. If that was a concept even remotely adhered to I'd still be living in the Spanish Kingdom. The whole point of an independence movement is that people no longer want to be lorded over by a central government that has lost its legitimacy. Why else would they bother with it in the first place?

    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    ... doesn't make this a shining example of democratic process.
    That's what's most disappointing about this in my view. This mess is going to taint other referenda on similar issues for years to come.
    Last edited by Tritagonist; 17-03-2014 at 04:46 PM.
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  16. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukasz View Post
    Can you provide any information on passed or proposed laws/legislation etc. which can be considered as targeting russian minority/eastern provinces/Russian interests in the region?
    The major one is the repealing of the Regional Languages Law, which primarily allows regional authorities to declare a minority language as semi-official and guarantees some other preferences to minority languages.
    - The law is quite recent, it was introduced in 2011. For 20 years before that language minorities rights were regulated by an old Soviet law. (And Crimean Constitution specifies additional preferences for Russian language.)
    - I haven't seen a proper analysis of how well the law worked for these two years, however 1) As far as I remember from the times when it was proposed it wasn't especially well-written; 2) It required substantial funding to properly support all official paperwork in an additional language and the state didn't have money for that.
    - I don't have any first-hand experience with regional languages since there were no attempts to propose a regional language in Kiev, but I assume that it provided some benefits, but not essential ones (At least I haven't heard about any actual essential benefits.)
    - The Parliament voted to repeal the law on the second day after Yanukovich fled the capital. I haven't seen any reasonable explanations for such hastiness. Likely it was an old itch that had remained after the initial protests when the law had been proposed in 2011. It wasn't a demand of the current protesters.
    - During the discussion of the proposed in the repeal in Parliament Oleh Tyahnybok (leader of "Svoboda") said that a new law would be proposed after consultations with representatives of ethnic minorities.
    - Acting President (Oleksander Turchinov) has vetoed the decision to repeal the law in a few days after it had caused an outrage. So the law remains valid at the moment.
    - The attempt to repeal the law was seen as symbolic one by pro-Russian Ukranians. While the law wasn't that essential it was one of the first decisions of the new coalition.
    - The attempt was widely discussed and demonized in Russian media. IIRC even RF FM Lavrov said that the Parliament tries to "outlaw Russian language" and I've seen this claim repeated in other places.

    There were other controversial laws registered in the Parliament, but none of them was actually discussed in public or in the Parliament. I've seen a list somewhere, but I can't find it now. There were a proposal to remove criminal responsibility for denial of Nazi's crimes and Nazism propaganda (proposed not by "Svoboda", but by a somewhat senile "Batkivshchyna" MP) and some propositions for early Crimean Parliament elections.

  17. #257
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    On the question of self-determination:
    Mejlis (an unofficial executive body of Crimean Tatars) made a plea two days ago to the Ukrainian government to guarantee (with a help of international authorities) the right for self-determination of Crimean Tatars. And Crimean Tatars are actual Crimean ethnic minority without a national state and with a history of oppression.

  18. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexius View Post
    On the question of self-determination:
    Mejlis (an unofficial executive body of Crimean Tatars) made a plea two days ago to the Ukrainian government to guarantee (with a help of international authorities) the right for self-determination of Crimean Tatars. And Crimean Tatars are actual Crimean ethnic minority without a national state and with a history of oppression.
    History of oppressing as well.

  19. #259
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    This is official now. The United Nations has declared its bankruptcy.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/21/wo...html?hpt=hp_t2

  20. #260
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    @squirrel

    Your attitude is not one that is helpful. Whether or not it is treason doesn't matter. Going around accusing people as such will not help the Ukraine's case in the slightest. The Russians would likely care little about it, but those in Crimea would.

    Anyway, this is not an appropriate way to hold a referendum. There was no considerable threat of violence, so Russian forces had no place leaving their bases. There is so much at stake that a region's affiliation should not be rushed and decided in less than a month. It sets a terrible precedent. I'd encourage Chechnya's people to declare a referendum if it weren't for the fact Putin would likely have no trouble crushing it militarily.

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