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  1. #1
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Any Friends from Ukraine Can Update Us on Situation There?

    We all know there is widespread public discontent against their government (elected of course)'s decision to withdraw from talk on closer economic tie with EU. As I know, current president Yanukovych won the last presidential election over Yushchenko primary because Yushchenko failed to revive the Ukrainian economy. And I am also aware that while Yushcenko is pro-west, Yanukovych is pro-Russia. Public discontent is against their government's decision to opt for Russia favor in stead of Western European one.

    I like both Russia and Ukraine, both are great nations. Therefore I regret to see that one is oppressing another every step of the way, which is an open secret. I also hope that Ms. Tymoshenko would regain her freedom and have her name clear. The condemnation against her is outright ridiculous.

    And if the public opts for western-oriented economy, why stop them from making the choice? Isn't Ukraine a democratic country? Isn't democracy the system electing Yanukovych the Ukraine president? It's has been almost 3 years and Ukraine's economy is still circling around the drainage. Shouldn't Yanukovych and his party worry about the next presidential and parliament election?

    So, you guys can share your insights on Ukraine's current situation and development?
    Last edited by squirrel; 04-12-2013 at 04:28 PM.

  2. #2
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Grizzly's Avatar
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    I like Russia
    I don't. Not it's current government anyway. Some papers have already stated that it was massive Russian pressure that forced Ukraine to back down from approaching the EU.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I don't. Not it's current government anyway. Some papers have already stated that it was massive Russian pressure that forced Ukraine to back down from approaching the EU.
    Yeah, Yanukovich actually promised Ukraine would get closer to EU before he was elected. Putin never liked EU in his "sphere of influence". That is exactly why Baltic states tripped over themselves in joining EU, just to get away.

  4. #4
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Apparently Russia just shuttered the RIA which was viewed as one of the more balanced news agencies, despite being nationally owned.
    The new agency will be headed by journalist and keen Kremlin supporter Dmitry Kiselev.

    The state-owned Voice of Russia radio station has also been closed. The decree was effective immediately.

    Of all the state-owned media organisations, RIA Novosti has made the greatest attempt to produce balanced coverage in recent years. This was in part because of its international clients in media organisations around the world. It would have lost credibility otherwise.

    But now the agency is being taken over by the Russia Today brand, which for opposition-minded Russians is more of a government mouthpiece, giving carefully selected news with a clear pro-Kremlin bias.

    The word "propaganda" - never far from the Kremlin's opponents' lips when they are discussing state-controlled Russian television news - is now also being used to describe the new news agency.
    Sergey Ivanov, the head of the Kremlin administration, has told journalists in Moscow that the news agency is being restructured in order to make it more economical while increasing its reach, Interfax reports.

    Mr Ivanov was quoted as saying that the agency, which is being dissolved and reorganised as International News Agency Russia Today, needs to make "more rational use of public money" and that it has to be more effective.

    "Russia pursues an independent policy and robustly defends its national interests. It's not easy to explain that to the world, but we can and must do this," he said.

    For many Kremlin critics in Russia, that phrase suggests this is a sinister move by President Putin, says the BBC's Daniel Sandford in Moscow.

    During Mr Putin's time as Russia's leader, RIA Novosti has tried hard to produce balanced coverage for Russian and international audiences, our correspondent says.

    Although state-owned, it has reflected the views of the opposition and covered difficult topics for the Kremlin, our correspondent adds.

    Mr Kiselev is known for his ultra-conservative views, including recently saying that gay people should be banned from giving blood, and that their hearts should be burnt rather than used in transplants.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25299116

  5. #5
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    This is what being guaranteed to happen when a "democratic" government ignores what its people are demanding:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/22/wo...html?hpt=hp_t1

    Hope this wont be another hot spot after Syria.

  6. #6
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    This is what being guaranteed to happen when a "democratic" government ignores what its people are demanding:

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/01/22/wo...html?hpt=hp_t1

    Hope this wont be another hot spot after Syria.
    You keep being positive towards democratic governments, but you like Russia? that doesnt make sense, Russia is very undemocratic at the moment.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  7. #7
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzly View Post
    I don't. Not it's current government anyway. Some papers have already stated that it was massive Russian pressure that forced Ukraine to back down from approaching the EU.
    The Economist ascribed a bit more agency to Ukraine's president on this.

    I recently asked a friend who spend a few weeks in Ukraine over the summer, and she said the couple of people she knows there in Kiev don't pay much attention to the protests any more.
    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

  8. #8
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    What happends here is, I suspect, that Russia has enough power to force Ukrania to be his bitch. So the governement have to make Russia happy. People don't want Russia melding on his bussines.

    This could be easier, perhaps, if the Ukrania governement manage to communicate the real politic problem to the people, so theres a agrement. I think on the end Ukrania will still be Russia bitch. Russia will not allow any other outcome, I think.

    Also the EU is not a happy lalala place. Europe is Germany+Everyone else, with Germany the industrial center, and everyone else "colonies". We (europeans) are Germany bitch. You may find being Germany bitch has a lot of problems, maybe being Russia bitch is not all that bad relativelly.
    Abandoned PC gaming for good. Now rest in a better place. psn:Teikman

  9. #9
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Squiz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Also the EU is not a happy lalala place. Europe is Germany+Everyone else, with Germany the industrial center, and everyone else "colonies". We (europeans) are Germany bitch. You may find being Germany bitch has a lot of problems, maybe being Russia bitch is not all that bad relativelly.
    El Oh El. Sorry for not being constructive, but that cracks me up.

  10. #10
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    There's a large German gentleman outside my door, brandishing a whip and a ballgag. Send help.

  11. #11
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tei View Post
    Also the EU is not a happy lalala place. Europe is Germany+Everyone else, with Germany the industrial center, and everyone else "colonies". We (europeans) are Germany bitch. You may find being Germany bitch has a lot of problems, maybe being Russia bitch is not all that bad relativelly.
    As a counterpoint: No.

    Of course Germany will always hold a lot of power in the EU. They're the most populous and economically strongest nation in the union. They're also a nation whose finances are not in complete chaos, giving them some authority in financial matters. However, and most importantly, they're lending a shit tonne of currency to other member states. It's hardly unreasonable for them to have some conditions for doing so. They have an interest in seeing European finances recover, both to get their money back and because a strong Europe is better for them in general (exports going up, net contribution going down, etc.). One might have issues with the policies they're pursuing, but the whole "Germany is taking over Europe" complaint is a bit tiring.

    Also, as a European and a citizen of the EU, I have not once felt like Germany's bitch. I can sympathize with the people in the struggling economies, but times are hard right now and we need to do what has to be done in order to see any improvements.

  12. #12
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    Beign Germany's bitch is so 40'. No one follow this trend anymore dude.

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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    Also, as a European and a citizen of the EU, I have not once felt like Germany's bitch.
    I am Polish and even I don't feel we are Germany's bitch. Some people here do, but they also think we are also Russia's bitch, so, uh, yeah.

  15. #15
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    if anything, germany is austrias bitch.

    just like old times.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications & The Shopkeeper, an interactive short.

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

  16. #16
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Wolfenswan's Avatar
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    I'm not sure how international media is addressing this, but in Germany the media's overwhelmingly pro-opposition and paints them as being simply pro-democratic and pro-west.

    What remains completely ignored, is how slowly but steadily hardcore nationalists and neo-nazis are taking over the protests and forming the "hard core" of the rioteers, glorifying the protests as an almost mythical "fight for their homeland". If you look closely on pictures and videos, you'll see a lot of right wing symbolism, e.g. in this one:
    ukraine1488.jpg
    Celtic cross, 14 for the "14 words" and below it the "88", representing "Heil Hitler".
    The far-right party Svoboda is been aknowledged as a legitime part of the protests, next to Klitschko's and Timoschenko's movement. Svoboda's pro-EU and pro-American to the extend the EDL is pro-Israel: As long as it culminates in opposition to a common foe (be it Russia or Arabs), everything goes.

    If you're able to read German (or want to try your luck with Google Translate), I recommend this article. I'll see if I can dig up something in English.


    That aside, the media's bias here is almost absurd when it comes to scandalizing the Ukrainian police. One article in a center-right newspaper noted how the police in the Ukraine are now demanding permits for building tents, barricades etc. or are forbidding helmets and masks and how all this marks the beginning of an authoritoritarian state. Ironically, all these things have been illegal in Germany for decades now.
    Last edited by Wolfenswan; 23-01-2014 at 02:44 PM.

  17. #17
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    I personally view this crisis as simple as: the Ukrainian government, which is elected, happened to implement a national policy which is not popular. I mean, you cannot expect your elected political leaders to do everything according to their voters' want every moment. Ukrainians find this so urgent they need to correct the mistake and cannot want till next election to do it.

    Given the strategic importance of Ukraine, how it positions itself in the international community would be important for all of us, but of course, Ukrainians have the right to make their own choice, and the current Ukraine's administration obviously does not respect this choice of the people.

    As I said, I like both Russia and Ukraine, but also no one can ignore the long hostility between the two people.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    You keep being positive towards democratic governments, but you like Russia? that doesnt make sense, Russia is very undemocratic at the moment.
    Unless you can prove that Putin could not win a presidential election without rigging it, Russia's current administration is an elected one. I don't doubt that he did play some dirty tricks in the last election, but I also doubt that anyone could really challenge his candidacy. One way or another, Putin no doubt would lead Russia, because Russia needs a strong leader like him. I envy Russia to have such a great leader.
    Last edited by squirrel; 23-01-2014 at 02:52 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    I envy Russia to have such a great leader.
    Mandela's death had me thinking about this subject recently. The 20th century had its Great Men (and a handful of Great Women) but who in the 21st century thus far qualifies as such? Putin would have to be the foremost candidate, at least within the formal political sphere. Erdogan and Lula would be the other two on the podium I think. Of course Erdogan's story is still unfolding and could well have an upset ending.

    Note that my use of the word "great" here isn't to suggest unqualified endorsement. I mean "great" in the sense of "larger than life": figures who seem to warp the very fabric of reality around them, who become synonymous with the path of their nation (which must itself be vaguely heroic, which is why Belgium is unlikely to produce a great leader anytime soon.) In other words I'm talking about the De Gaulles of this world: "When I want to know what France thinks, I ask myself."
    Last edited by Lethe; 25-01-2014 at 04:14 PM.

  19. #19
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Putin revived the national glory of Russia, which was almost lost under the corrupted ruling of Yeltsin. Even to this day, after his death for some years, I still wonder: was Yeltsin actually an American spy tasked to bring down the power of Russia?

    But for one thing, Putin is a great man to Russia, he is not to Ukraine. He doesn't have right to oppress Ukraine. Let's not play naive, Russia's oppression is THE primary reason for the losing days of Ukraine all those years.

    Now Ukrainians are fighting back, those pictures make Kiev almost like a battlefield. It deeply worries me. I exactly recall that one year after the outbreak of the Syria crisis, we started to refer to those once demonstrators as warriors.




  20. #20
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethe View Post
    I mean "great" in the sense of "larger than life": figures who seem to warp the very fabric of reality around them, who become synonymous with the path of their nation (which must itself be vaguely heroic, which is why Belgium is unlikely to produce a great leader anytime soon.)
    It's going to be hard to beat this team when it comes to 'warping the very fabric of reality'.

    "He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to
    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
    Luke 4:18

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