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  1. #261
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    So no surprise, everything develops naturally, and therefore, Ukraine's civil war broke out just like that.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2014/04/13/wo...html?hpt=hp_t1

    This could have been avoided all together if the west is willing to put in real effort to force Russia to back down, yet no mircale occurs so far.

  2. #262
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    This could have been avoided all together if the west is willing to put in real effort to force Russia to back down, yet no mircale occurs so far.
    Through the threat of war over a nation "the west" clearly doesn't want?
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  3. #263
    Network Hub SirDavies's Avatar
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    I've been following this Vice News on the ground documentary about the process. I find it's a good complement to other mainstream media coverage. It's worth watching from the beginning, but this is the last part for the moment:


  4. #264
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    Vice ....documentary...



    Please, they frame their 'narrative' right from the word go.

  5. #265
    Network Hub SirDavies's Avatar
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    that makes it more honest in my opinion. I find news sites that try to appear objective tend to be way more malicious and manipulative in their reporting.
    Last edited by SirDavies; 17-04-2014 at 08:07 PM.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    that makes it more honest in my opinion.
    There is nothing honest about a framed narrative.


  7. #267
    Network Hub SirDavies's Avatar
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    The conclusion from that is that there's nothing honest about media. Which is mostly true. I didn't say it was honest, I said I found it more honest than self proclaimed objective news outlets. If I had to grade it from 1 to 10 in terms of honesty, with 10 being a close friend and 1 being a politician on the week before election day, it would still be around 4, with more mainstream media probably sitting at 2. That doesn't mean that it can't have some informative value and offer interesting perspectives.

  8. #268
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    I didn't say it was honest
    How is starting a video with 'this is fooking scary' as a framing point any more honest? The set up is already there in terms of the editorial intent. At least with the likes of Fox etc you're accustomed to the bias, but this sort of thing is insidious in how it's attempting to pass itself off a more of a reality when in truth it's a series of heavily edited soundbytes.
    Last edited by Kadayi; 17-04-2014 at 11:49 PM.

  9. #269
    Network Hub SirDavies's Avatar
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    Are you implying that they took the "this is fooking scary" from a moment when he was complaining about how low the camera battery was and edited it in there to make you believe he was actually scared at that moment, or that he was just lying about being scared? I think making people accustomed (and thus less sensitive) to the bias is way more dangerous than wearing the bias on your sleeve. As you said, the editorial intent is there for all to see, it's called RUSSIAN ROULETTE: THE INVASION OF UKRAINE ffs!

    So yeah, I consider it more honest in the sense that it is more straightforward about their bias and that makes it easier to discern what is their editorial opinion and what is the data. Of course looking exclusively at this documentary would be insufficient to get a clear idea of the whole situation, that's why I introduced it as "a good complement" to other news outlets.
    Last edited by SirDavies; 18-04-2014 at 03:40 AM.

  10. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirDavies View Post
    - snip-

  11. #271
    Network Hub SirDavies's Avatar
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    good points all around

  12. #272
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Media lost interest or something? There were clashes in Odessa with dozens of dead. Helicopters fired at Slavyansk. Two or three helicopters are confirmed to be shot down. Things are generally spiraling out of control. But as long as we don't invade it seems no one cares.
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  13. #273
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus SirKicksalot's Avatar
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    I've seen some mentions in the international press. I'm in Romania and our press talks a lot about these events. I went to a bar yesterday and people were discussing the situation in Ukraine. There's a general feeling of dread around here.

  14. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    Media lost interest or something? There were clashes in Odessa with dozens of dead. Helicopters fired at Slavyansk. Two or three helicopters are confirmed to be shot down. Things are generally spiraling out of control. But as long as we don't invade it seems no one cares.
    It's still the second story I see when I go to the BBC's website. And I'm not sure it's so much that no-one cares as in that pretty much everyone in the news knows perfectly well that the West aren't about to do anything beyond slap more sanctions on Putin and co. which none of them are the slightest bit bothered by, and that Putin's very unlikely to invade when he can just let the opposing factions pull the country to pieces between them with the minimum of effort. (Helped by his special forces on the ground, natch, who totally aren't there and who he knows absolutely nothing about, wink wink.) It's just a process of reporting what's going on at this point - world leaders aren't saying anything new and everyone knows how things are probably going to play out - so unless anything drastically changes it's inevitably going to slip down the rankings a little.
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  15. #275
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    BBC is doing very regular reporting, as is CBC, I don't know about other networks.

    The last thing I personally read was the Ukraine military offensive that reportedly/allegedly left several "insurgents" dead, I guess that was the Odessa thing.

    There is also quite a bit of reporting on the NATO troop movements in EU and military exercises in Poland I believe. I think Canada has already sent some CF18s (primarily air superiority, though can also be fitted with alternative equipment) and a small contingent of ground troops to participate in exercises.

  16. #276
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eight Rooks View Post
    Helped by his special forces on the ground, natch, who totally aren't there and who he knows absolutely nothing about, wink wink.
    In our day of internet and cellphones with cameras it's kind of hard to hide actual real special forces in a plain sight for a long time. During Crimean takeover people who followed events knew exact units and even names/adresses of some of our soldiers before journalists noticed it happened. Just like in 2008 people knew the war is going to happen at least a week prior before it started "surprisingly". So here some most likely unarmed plaincloths are gathering intel, sure. Nothing on the scale of Crimea is seen anywhere. Crimea already had a Russian presence in the form of the naval base with 20-something thousands of servicemen. Eastern Ukraine is much bigger and no bases.


    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    The last thing I personally read was the Ukraine military offensive that reportedly/allegedly left several "insurgents" dead, I guess that was the Odessa thing.
    Nope, different events. In Odessa there was a really bizzare "unarmed" civilian march and then "unarmed" counter-march with some dead on both sides, police doing nothing then helping the anti-maidan guys who had at least one guy with AK who shot... somwhere, I guess? Then pro-maidan people firebombed the building in which anti-maidan people were trying to barrickade themselves. And then 40 people died. It's bizzare. There are some really disturbing videos floating around. It's shocking to see this happening in Odessa, which is a ome-of-a-kind cultural center.

    In Slavyansk there were atempts to encircle city and launch a CTO, apparently not much came out of it. Also Kiev-forces somehow managed to lose three helicopters. Again it's bizzare.
    Last edited by coldvvvave; 04-05-2014 at 06:43 PM.
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  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldvvvave View Post
    In our day of internet and cellphones with cameras it's kind of hard to hide actual real special forces in a plain sight for a long time. During Crimean takeover people who followed events knew exact units and even names/adresses of some of our soldiers before journalists noticed it happened. Just like in 2008 people knew the war is going to happen at least a week prior before it started "surprisingly". So here some most likely unarmed plaincloths are gathering intel, sure. Nothing on the scale of Crimea is seen anywhere. Crimea already had a Russian presence in the form of the naval base with 20-something thousands of servicemen. Eastern Ukraine is much bigger and no bases.
    Not on the scale of Crimea, perhaps, but last I heard several of the events were instigated or assisted in part by the same kind of guys, tightly drilled, seemingly rehearsed, mysteriously armed with Russian military kit and parroting the WE ARE GOOD UKRANIAN PATRIOTS schtick almost verbatim. That Putin and his officials insist they know nothing about and have no connection with. Note that I don't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist; I'm just going by various Western news sources, I'll happily admit that.* Nor do I mean to imply oh, goodness, how could Putin do something so evil and underhand? I'm more irritated by the Russian denials than anything else - of course you're behind these guys! Why wouldn't you be? You want the Ukraine, as much of it as you can get, or at worst you want it neutered, and this seems like a far more sensible way to go about it than a full-scale invasion. I understand that's how politics goes, though, obviously, and they have to keep pretending these things aren't happening for as long as they possibly can.

    *There was a fairly good Economist article about how the first few incidents were following the exact same pattern as Crimea, but there's so many articles on the situation now and I get so tired of the comments on that site (Russian and Ukranian nationalist lunatics flinging death threats and ALL HAIL PUTINs back and forth) I can't be bothered to search for it.
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  18. #278
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Yep deny everything even though its obvious its the russians since they have the most to gain from these people doing what there doing. Im just disgusted that the rest of europe is washing their hands or even some of them saying that Putin is right to do it...ergh!

  19. #279
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xercies View Post
    Yep deny everything even though its obvious its the russians since they have the most to gain from these people doing what there doing. Im just disgusted that the rest of europe is washing their hands or even some of them saying that Putin is right to do it...ergh!
    At least from the perspective of the world media, the Ukraine is a pretty shitty place right now with respect to stability and safety. I have seen differing opinions from within the Ukraine itself (just check the history of this thread for a brief summary).

    Similarly, there is a huge issue about The Crimea and if what Russia did was "legal". Except, that region has historically identified as Russian (in large part because Stalin murdered everyone who didn't...), and a big part of the riots in the Ukraine were about wanting to be able to choose the direction of the Ukraine.

    So we basically have Europe and the rest of the non-Russian world washing their hands of this and just walking away. And we have Russia actually stepping in and "trying to stabilize and protect" the parts that it wants. Yes, there is a lot more bullshit going on, but Russia isn't the only group manipulating the people and "starting shit" to get their way. And as much as it sucks for anyone who doesn't want to be Russian, there IS something to be said for taking what could become a decade long shitstorm and nipping it in the bud by taking over.


    That being said: Ignoring the warhawks who just hate Russia and blah blah blah, most of the sentiment I have seen boils down to "we aren't getting involved in this, it is too complicated and we have nothing to gain". Which sucks, but might be a smart move since UN intervention hasn't really helped other nations.
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  20. #280
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    The crisis is still one of the world news catching most of the international attention. It's just there is still no break through for all sides, and therefore there is no point reporting what the soldiers are doing in their trenches, isn't it?

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