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  1. #121
    Lesser Hivemind Node eRa's Avatar
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    Some more (excellent) maps by the Times: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...pgtype=article

  2. #122
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Alright, this one from Wikipedia then:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Uk...01_Russian.svg

    I know that CNN's map seems a bit misleading as it colors the oblasts with Russian population from 25-74% in red - those with less than half population being Russians should be safe, right? You are wrong. You don't understand Russia.

    Of course, if it feels unchallenged (NATO scares as hell wants to stay out of this mess, its military commanders publicly announced that they would be incapable to response to any Russia's hostile military action against Ukraine. I am speechless. Seriously, what kind of soldiers are they?!), it may soon declare to be protector of the whole Slav. So let me see, Ukraine, White Russia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Serbia......

    Poor Ukrainians, I hope they stay strong but now it is a great possibility they cannot make this through. Free from oppression for a brief period of two decades and it may end just like that.
    Dude, most of your arguments boil down to "none of you understand Russia" and "slippery slope".

    Maybe Russia really is trying to take over the world. They still can't make an overt attack on anyone that the UN cares about, and that basically means Western Europe, China, and MAYBE the Middle East (I doubt the rest of the world cares about the US, but we would fuck Russia up enough that it isn't viable :p). So I am sure France is saying "This is Future France's problem" and Britain is saying "This is Future UK's Problem" and so forth.

    It sucks, but that is just how the world "works".

    Also: the world is a very different place than it was in the 40s and 50s. Advances in military technology (basically assault rifles and The Anarchist's Cookbook...) have made resistance fighters/guerilla groups ridiculously effective. And the Ukranian people have already shown that they don't give a fuck about destroying their homes if it means "breaking the yoke of the oppressor". So if enough of them REALLY don't want Russia to control them, there will be an armed rebellion, complete with "a few bad apples" who will ethnically cleanse whoever they don't like.

    And guess what the US and EU ARE very good at? Selling guns to paramilitary groups under the table.
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  3. #123
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
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    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
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  4. #124
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    People living in comfort for too long tend to give up easily on test deemed too difficult to pass. Yet this is a DOA struggle. You may not view it now, it would be too late when you start realizing this fact.

    If you the west hesitate to act on Africa or Syria, I understand. But this is no peripheral region. This is Ukraine, Europe. This is the frontline! Ukrainians offer to establish tie with the world of freedom, and the west turns them down coldly because of the big brother behind Ukraine? Yes, this is such a test too difficult to pass, so you are gonna relinquish all have been achieved in the victory of the Cold War within just these few months?! I feel for you, but for your cowardliness all on this planet will suffer. Ukrainians have the right to make their choice, they have: to become part of the free world, then their livelihoods tie with ours. We give them up now, when XXX is coming for you, no one will come to your rescue because they are all gone.

    I think of a devil plan. The forces currently occupying Crimea, don't its members claim that they are not Russian military but just local militias? I don't think Ukraine government authorizes existence of any such armed group, if they ever exist. So? What if Ukraine's military (including Internal Troops) now storms Crimea and liquidate any non-Ukraine armed forces it ever encounters? Seriously, what's the problem? Russia publicly declares that they are not affiliated with Russia, so their fate has absolutely nothing to do with Russia. And legitimacy of such military operation within Ukraine's own territory by Ukraine's own military force? You try to wield an AK74 on an American street, see what kinda response you would get from those American cops who are infamous for happy trigger?

    If you make it through this, Ukraine, the bright future will be yours.

  5. #125
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    Maybe Russia really is trying to take over the world.
    brb signing up for cannon fodder

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  6. #126
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    But you seriously think Russia can conclude just by claiming Crimea?
    The Russian Federation is not 'claiming' Crimea.

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Either it's the Crimea and the whole Eastern and Southern Ukraine or nothing.
    Says who?

    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Russia has claimed to be protector of Slav since 1999 NATO strike on Serb.
    That's probably why the Russian Federation invaded Bosnia and Croatia and made them parts of Serbia again! But wait! They didn't!

    The only time this supposed policy actually had an international consequence was during 2008 when Georgia bombarded parts of South Ossetia. Georgia then tried to convince the world that it responded to a Russian invasion, but not even the USA and NATO supported that narrative. After that short war, the Russian Federation 'claimed' Georgia, which is now a province of the Russian Federation. Or rather, they didn't!

    Meanwhile, the Americans want to stay in Afghanistan until at least 2024.

    There are plenty of things wrong with or dubious about Russia and the way it is governed, but let's not get carried away by the most anti-Russian propagandists.
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  7. #127
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    The only time this supposed policy actually had an international consequence was during 2008 when Georgia bombarded parts of South Ossetia.
    You might want to add "in modern times" there, 'cause, you know, WW1. I'm not saying Russia started it all, but they did sort of start the mobilization race, which led to Germany's entrance, and so on. Pan-Slavism is not a new concept.

  8. #128
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    no, WW1 was started by Austria.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  9. #129
    Lesser Hivemind Node Fanbuoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    no, WW1 was started by Austria.
    That's extremely oversimplified. Not quite as simplified version: Austria and Serbia were beefing over Bosnia-Herzegovina, Franz-Ferdinand was killed, Austria made a bunch of ultimatums, Serbia didn't fully comply, Austria declared war, Russia mobilized to protect their interests in the region, Germany mobilized, Russia mobilized more, war broke out. Germany attacked France, marching through Benelux, causing the UK to join. Oh, and Italy were supposedly in the war as well. However, the war was going to happen in one way or another, it was only a question of when, where and why.

    Anyway, I don't want to derail the thread. I just wanted to point out a noticeable omission.

  10. #130
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Cooper's Avatar
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    In this thread: A lot of gross misunderstanding of Ukraine, its people and its history.
    Quote Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
    KING GEORGE IS A FROG
    le BANG~__-MICHEAL FUCK OFF~~__-INTERPOL KNOW YOU WELLBIENG~—
    OFF
    NOT RUSHMORE MOUNTAIN
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    TEXASISDEADINPARISHEWASAMAN..BINGBING.TETTOHEAD.SP ACEOK,TIMEDEADANDSTOPPED1920HOKKAIDO.UNDERSTOODAT1 ONE.
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  11. #131
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    but youre missing a key element: the German kaiser urged the Austrian kaiser to please dont do anything rash that will send everyone to war. Then he went away for a couple of days, while he did this, austria declared war. It was a very stupid and rash thing to do, and the german emperor explicitely tried to stop the austrian one. He failed and the rest is history.
    Last edited by QuantaCat; 01-03-2014 at 04:46 PM.
    - Tom De Roeck.

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  12. #132
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Lukasz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    You might want to add "in modern times" there, 'cause, you know, WW1. I'm not saying Russia started it all, but they did sort of start the mobilization race, which led to Germany's entrance, and so on. Pan-Slavism is not a new concept.
    Like QC said: WW1 was started by Austria which resulted in all the countries being pulled into the war including Russia... who was with Germany one of the biggest losers in the war. They lost a great deal of land to Poland, lost many men and their economy simply collapsed.
    Germany was part of the war before Russia joined. They were surprised by early attack tough as they were preparing to fight Russia from day one but expected it to happen later. The moment Austria invaded Serbia Germany was part of WW1.
    Therefore; whatever sins Russia might have committed in the past and now... WW1 is not one of them.

  13. #133
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fanbuoy View Post
    You might want to add "in modern times" there, 'cause, you know, WW1.
    Sure, add that if it makes it better. The point is that certain people's characterization of the Russian Federation and its role in the current Ukrainian situation are extremely one-sided, bordering on inflammatory scaremongering.

    The assertion that Russia 'sort of start[ed] the mobilization race, which led to Germany's entrance' into World War I is another topic entirely.
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    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
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  14. #134
    Lesser Hivemind Node eRa's Avatar
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    For further reading I recommend The Sleepwalkers by Christopher Clarke. It covers the coming about of WWI in great detail (including the pan-slavic angle).

  15. #135
    Lesser Hivemind Node postinternetsyndrome's Avatar
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    Going back on topic, I've been told there is now shooting happening in Simferopol. Anyone know more about this?

  16. #136
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    Oh, god, thank you for this thread (at least the parts toward the end as i didn't read it all). i was deeply frustrated seeing how all over the forums i tend to visit the general consensus is limited to "Ukraines were oppressed by a mass murderer and corrupted putin puppet, overthrown by liberal pro europeans and now evil putin is striking back because he wants to expand his empire".

    thank you for having a balanced discussion, i missed it these last few days.

  17. #137
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    Sarkozy is weighing in.

    Amid a deep political crisis in Ukraine, Sarkozy urged Europe to offer the former Soviet republic, along with Belarus, Georgia and Russia, a "new framework" for cooperation, cautioning the West against a "catastrophic" clash with Moscow."Nothing would be worse than an unnecessary confrontation with Russia," said Sarkozy, whose speech was interrupted by applause several times. "I think in Berlin one understands this better than anywhere else in the world."
    From the closest thing Europe has produced to a leader in the 21st century (on the level of international statesman at least, I understand the domestic criticisms) it is of some interest.

    Relatedly I have not heard much of the French position in this matter. It is of interest considering both the pre-eminent role that France usually plays in shaping any European consensus, and that France has always been an outlier in terms of its relationship with Russia.
    Last edited by Lethe; 01-03-2014 at 09:36 PM.

  18. #138
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by postinternetsyndrome View Post
    Going back on topic, I've been told there is now shooting happening in Simferopol. Anyone know more about this?
    It's weird. About 20 gunmen wearing tracksuits were seen( and filmed too) firing on a building, apparently the fire wasn't returned by "no Russian" Russian troops from that building. There is more. Gumen had tacticool equipment with eotech sights on gm-94(!!) and those grenade launchers are mostly Russian SF/MOD-only. But it gets even weirder. Those gunmen left in an orange bus. There were blank shell casings found on the scene and Russian speaker claimed there were no casualties. Of course, the tinfoilhat brigade cried false flag. But truth be told no one knows.
    Last edited by coldvvvave; 01-03-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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  19. #139
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    You guys read Ukrainian?

    http://yanukovychleaks.org

    Ukraine still stand a chance in Crimea. I suspect that those R...... those unidentifiable gunmen in the region are not of field army. They are more like KGB kinda operation forces. They are elite, you need a few more men to take out a single one, but their fatality is that they have inferior firepower and therefore can easily be outgunned by field army. How I draw this conclusion? You heard about 1969 border clash between China and Russia (USSR at the time) over Northeastern corner of Manchuria concluded by China's victory? The Soviet force in the conflict was actually not Red Army (national defense force of the USSR, I think they no longer refer to it as Red Army ever since 1950s but anyway I just refer to it as so for simplicity). It was KGB taskforce. Red Army's Far East zone was mobilized as backup but as I know, our military never truely engaged them. The KGB force in the conflict even employed some T62 MBTs, which was still a secret model back then (we got one of them), but in general they were seriously outgunned and out-manned. It was this disadvantage on their side that we won the conflict (it was a skirmish, we generally don't consider it a war).

    So this is the last chance. Those gunnmen carry no insignia. They don't want to be identified. Ukraine could send in field army to overrun them. Make sure you hold Kerch tight so that no logistics comes from Ru...... from whatever foreign power through land. Russia "has no intention" to invade Ukraine, so Black Sea Fleet won't back up those gunnmen from no where. This is your last chance, act fast and decisively.

    Sadly this is within Putin's calculation all along. Either Yanukovych was entrapped, or he simply colluded with Putin to put Ukraine in chaos, so that Ukraine would be incapable to mobilize for a massive military operation in midst of the commotion.

  20. #140
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    There are plenty of things wrong with or dubious about Russia and the way it is governed, but let's not get carried away by the most anti-Russian propagandists.
    Must admit I've been doing other things, so haven't been keeping up with the whole Russia/Ukraine deal but I do concur that the presentation of events, especially by the US media whenever it comes to Russia seems inherently fixated on painting them out to be the villains in all situations without necessarily weighting up the facts in an even handed manner or properly presenting the motivations for their actions. The Russian "invasion of Afganistan" is a prime example of this, where in the media fixate on the war and beating the Ruskies, without necessarily understanding or appreciating that the Russian forces were there by request to help the Afgan Communist government fight the mountain rebels. Rebels who basically opposed the Communist governments radical plans to modernize the country through reforms like education for all and equal rights for women. Rights on paper that likely most people would be behind, but not when they're proposed by communists it seems.

    I think years of entertainment media mythologising the Russians and the USSR has instilled a certain Pavlovian response to Russia of deep mistrust & dare one say irrational fear. A prime example of that sort of thing can be seen manifest in a lot of the US media coverage of things like the Olympics, where in any Russian victory was begrudged and regarded as suspicious and any failure celebrated. The contentious women's Ice Skating result is a prime example. Despite safeguards built into the scoring system to eliminate national bias (something the pre 2004 6.0 scoring system was infamously rife with) there exists this fixation with the idea that the result was rigged, although there's really not any evidence to support the assertion if one takes account of how the short program was judged and how the scores compare across the board from a critical perspective. Yet despite that, various commentators in the US raised doubts or fixated on particular aspects often devoid of context in order to support their narrative. Post competition a Russian judge congratulating the winner is a clear sign of collusion for instance, even though it's not unusual for that sort of thing to happen after an event and the winner was congratulated by other people and judges as well.

    Certainly not saying Russia are the good guys in all things, but I always think it's important to be critical and questioning with respect to media representation, especially when it's directed at a broad group.
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