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  1. #141
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    Russia is actively threatening the sovereignty of an independent nation. That's really difficult to chalk up as propaganda. Imagine the USA doing the same to Canada or the UK to Ireland.
    But it's actually much worse than that because USA, UK and Russia all signed the Budapest memorandum that guarantees the independence of the Ukraine. It's very unambiguous. So yeah, Russia is playing with fire here.
    You could always argue that nobody cares enough to go to war over the Ukraine but you could have said the same thing about Belgium and Poland back in the day.
    to wound the autumnal city.

  2. #142
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Im just glad Austria is neutral in all things war.
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  3. #143
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    But it's actually much worse than that because USA, UK and Russia all signed the Budapest memorandum that guarantees the independence of the Ukraine. It's very unambiguous. So yeah, Russia is playing with fire here.
    Oh~My~God!!

    So I've been wondering, the USSR must have deployed strategic nuclear weapons in Ukraine at the time of its own dissolution. Where are those weapons now? So this is why Ukraine surrendered those weapons.

    Now Ukraine has been cheated and Russia is doing this. Putin, you are the man.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    Im just glad Austria is neutral in all things war.
    No offence, but good luck with Austria. Unless you can serve RXXX better in independence or you can defend yourself from the mighty Russia military (both nukes and conventional forces), otherwise, "I eat you if I want to, why do I need justification for that?"

    Seriously, you really think Swiss was untouched because it has been a legitimate neutral state ever since?

  4. #144
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Oh~My~God!!

    So I've been wondering, the USSR must have deployed strategic nuclear weapons in Ukraine at the time of its own dissolution. Where are those weapons now? So this is why Ukraine surrendered those weapons.

    Now Ukraine has been cheated and Russia is doing this. Putin, you are the man.



    No offence, but good luck with Austria. Unless you can serve RXXX better in independence or you can defend yourself from the mighty Russia military (both nukes and conventional forces), otherwise, "I eat you if I want to, why do I need justification for that?"

    Seriously, you really think Swiss was untouched because it has been a legitimate neutral state ever since?
    Austria has to stay neutral as per agreement after the second world war. And please stop the paranoia, kthx
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  5. #145
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    After the end of the USSR the Ukraine ended up independent and with an enormous nuclear arsenal. In fact, at the time it was larger than those of China, France and UK combined. Naturally, that made a lot of people very nervous and in the end, Ukraine had their nuclear weapons dismantled (by Russia) in exchange for said Budapest memorandum.
    Don't be fooled by the common USSR past, Russian and Ukrainian relations are bad to say the least (keyword holodomor) and the Ukraine has always been afraid of Russian interventions.
    to wound the autumnal city.

  6. #146
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantaCat View Post
    And please stop the paranoia, kthx
    At the very beginning of this thread I've warned against the threat of Russia over Ukraine, and all of you just laughed at me. So now what? But seriously, does the development of the crisis so far surprise any of you really? I don't think so.

    Threat is clear and present. Just by denying it will never make it go away. Showing muscle to force Russia to back down or else, is the only way of communication to figures like Putin.

    I tell you a story. Few years ago Putin visited Japan (back when he was not President in honor of Russia Constitution). Russia and Japan has territorial dispute over the Four Northern Island which Russia took from Japan at the end of the Second World War. So in one occasion, Japanese politicians, some MPs I think, ambush Putin to surround him, bombarded him with verbal demands to return the islands. Putin, annoyed, responded in one single statement, "Territory dispute is resolved not by negotiation but only by war, so come get it if you have guts." It silenced those Japaneses. This, is the man we are dealing with.

    You know how Russian border guards deal with civilian fishing vessels violating Russia water? Fire them to reduce them to bee hive (Chinese way of describing those being shot as hell, imagine a bee hive) until they sink to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean with their crews, without warning.
    Last edited by squirrel; 02-03-2014 at 11:39 AM.

  7. #147
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    Russia is actively threatening the sovereignty of an independent nation. That's really difficult to chalk up as propaganda. Imagine the USA doing the same to Canada or the UK to Ireland.
    Why imagine such fictitious scenarios when we have plenty of examples of the USA and the UK not only threatening the 'sovereignty of an independent nation' but actively violating it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    But it's actually much worse than that because USA, UK and Russia all signed the Budapest memorandum that guarantees the independence of the Ukraine. It's very unambiguous.
    It's a bit of a cumbersome topic to get into, but note that the Budapest Memorandum has never been brought up for a vote in the US Senate.

    From the article: 'Is there anything legally binding about the "Budapest Memorandum" regarding Russia's obligations to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity?

    "That's actually a much more complex question than it may sound. It is binding in international law, but that doesn't mean it has any means of enforcement," says Barry Kellman is a professor of law and director of the International Weapons Control Center at DePaul University's College of Law.'
    Last edited by Tritagonist; 02-03-2014 at 01:01 PM.
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  8. #148
    Moderator QuantaCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    At the very beginning of this thread I've warned against the threat of Russia over Ukraine, and all of you just laughed at me. So now what? But seriously, does the development of the crisis so far surprise any of you really? I don't think so.

    Threat is clear and present. Just by denying it will never make it go away. Showing muscle to force Russia to back down or else, is the only way of communication to figures like Putin.

    I tell you a story. Few years ago Putin visited Japan (back when he was not President in honor of Russia Constitution). Russia and Japan has territorial dispute over the Four Northern Island which Russia took from Japan at the end of the Second World War. So in one occasion, Japanese politicians, some MPs I think, ambush Putin to surround him, bombarded him with verbal demands to return the islands. Putin, annoyed, responded in one single statement, "Territory dispute is resolved not by negotiation but only by war, so come get it if you have guts." It silenced those Japaneses. This, is the man we are dealing with.

    You know how Russian border guards deal with civilian fishing vessels violating Russia water? Fire them to reduce them to bee hive (Chinese way of describing those being shot as hell, imagine a bee hive) until they sink to the bottom of the Pacific Ocean with their crews, without warning.
    No, an attack on Ukraine, if it is an attack, does not mean a global event. Ofcourse there would be a response from Russia, they were the ones pursuing an active detrriment of the EU in eastern europe. that doesnt mean an all out war in europe.
    - Tom De Roeck.

    verse publications

    "Quantacat's name is still recognised even if he watches on with detached eyes like Peter Molyneux over a cube in 3D space, staring at it with tears in his eyes, softly whispering... Someday they'll get it."

    "It's frankly embarrassing. The mods on here are woeful."

    "I wrinkled my nose at QC being a mod."

    "At least he has some personality."

  9. #149
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    "You just don't in the 21st Century behave in 19th Century fashion by invading another country on completely trumped-up pretext," Mr Kerry told the CBS program Face the Nation.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26405635

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  10. #150
    Moderator Anthile's Avatar
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    Damn, you have to be one cold ass motherfucker to drop a line like that without even the slightest hint of reflection.
    to wound the autumnal city.

  11. #151
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Tritagonist's Avatar
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    He either doesn't care about the incredible hypocrisy he displays, or he is genuinely unaware of the reputation the United States has built up, in the last 20 years especially. I don't know which is worse.

    Then again, this is the same guy who makes the news when he concludes an official visit without, to quote the Washington Times, 'making any diplomatic flubs'.
    Last edited by Tritagonist; 02-03-2014 at 03:43 PM.
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    the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free". ~
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  12. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    I do concur that the presentation of events, especially by the US media whenever it comes to Russia seems inherently fixated on painting them out to be the villains in all situations without necessarily weighting up the facts in an even handed manner or properly presenting the motivations for their actions.
    This doesn't change that Putin is a thoroughly ruthless asshole who will happily grab scraps of the old empire, if he can.

    See, as biased the US media might be, they are not completely wrong. Russians are much less through the Cold War then the West is and many still perceive it as a genuine enemy. We might go for non-zero-sum games, but is hard to do with people who don't believe in them.

  13. #153
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tritagonist View Post
    He either doesn't care about the incredible hypocrisy he displays, or he is genuinely unaware of the reputation the United States has built up, in the last 20 years especially. I don't know which is worse.

    Then again, this is the same guy who makes the news when he concludes an official visit without, to quote the Washington Times, 'making any diplomatic flubs'.
    When have the US ever questioned their actions? About the only American of recent years whose dared to suggest that maybe just maybe some of the grief that has come their way is a result of some frankly asinine foreign policies was probably Ron Paul tbh, and I think he only said so because being a libertarian he had nothing to lose and everything to gain.

    Quote Originally Posted by mouton View Post
    This doesn't change that Putin is a thoroughly ruthless asshole who will happily grab scraps of the old empire, if he can.

    See, as biased the US media might be, they are not completely wrong. Russians are much less through the Cold War then the West is and many still perceive it as a genuine enemy. We might go for non-zero-sum games, but is hard to do with people who don't believe in them.
    TBH if half of the Ukraine want to be Russian because they speak it and that's their cultural heritage. I'm not seeing much of a difference between them breaking away from the Ukraine and becoming their own thing ala Pakistan and India, versus this staying put and trying to make a house divided work. There's a lot of talk about sovereignty but have a public referendum and let the people decide.

    worth listening to: -

    http://www.thenation.com/blog/178511...divide-ukraine
    Last edited by Kadayi; 02-03-2014 at 06:35 PM.
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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    TBH if half of the Ukraine want to be Russian because they speak it and that's their cultural heritage.
    Bullshit. What kind of logic is "If you speak Russian you want to join Russia"? The answer is that it's the logic used by Russia to justify it's aggression. But most of the Russian-speaking Ukrainian don't want anything like that. Otherwise Ukraine would have fallen apart long time ago.
    The western media is too caught in all this drama about irreparable divide and a risk of a civil war.

  15. #155
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    I suppose now I understand how Serenegoose felt during all these feminism discussions. Russian Federation commits unprovoked military intervention backed by a false and tenuous pretense, preliminary brainwashing people with rabid propaganda, and people here want a balanced discussion and not to be carried away by anti-Russian propaganda.
    P.S. Sorry, if I'm bit too emotional, but I hope you can understand my emotions.

  16. #156
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Kadayi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexius View Post
    Bullshit. What kind of logic is "If you speak Russian you want to join Russia"? The answer is that it's the logic used by Russia to justify it's aggression. But most of the Russian-speaking Ukrainian don't want anything like that. Otherwise Ukraine would have fallen apart long time ago.
    The western media is too caught in all this drama about irreparable divide and a risk of a civil war.
    Have a referendum to decide. Learn to edit posts whilst you're at it as well.
    Why yes you're right I'm deliciously evil

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  17. #157
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus rockman29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthile View Post
    Damn, you have to be one cold ass motherfucker to drop a line like that without even the slightest hint of reflection.
    I wanted to say the same thing. Absolutely ridiculous.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    Have a referendum to decide. Learn to edit posts whilst you're at it as well.
    Thanks a lot for your helpful hints, but why shall we have a referendum if nobody ever tried to initiate the legal procedure for it? Because someone in Russia, Europe or USA believes that Eastern Ukraine wants to secede?

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kadayi View Post
    TBH if half of the Ukraine want to be Russian because they speak it and that's their cultural heritage. I'm not seeing much of a difference between them breaking away from the Ukraine and becoming their own thing ala Pakistan and India, versus this staying put and trying to make a house divided work. There's a lot of talk about sovereignty but have a public referendum and let the people decide.
    Populations are quite mixed or so I hear. Not all Russian speakers identify themselves as Russians and not all Russian speakers want to split the country or join Russia. If it was easy, it would have been done long ago. Even in most of the East non-Russian speakers are a majority.

  20. #160
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    I calmed down a bit :) So here a few facts about Russian- and Ukrainian-speaking Ukraine:
    - Kiev is predominately Russian-speaking, however kievans massively support Maidan. In general they are "pro-West" and there are no movements for joining Russia or even for Russian as the second official language.
    - Ukrainian cities tend to be more Russian-speaking than rural areas. So there are some Ukrainian-speaking in Eastern small towns and villages, while cities are totally Russian-speaking.
    - There is also "surzhik" - a dialect that is a mix of Russian and Ukranian which is prominent in rural Center.
    - Far from all Russian-speaking Ukrainians identify themselves as Russians. In the Crimea there are about 25% Ukrainians, 15% Tatars and 60% Russians.
    - While a considerable part of Russian-speakers tend to want closer ties with Russia and to be against ukrainization (bu certainly not all of them. See Kiev as example) there were no major movements for joining Russian Federation.
    - Religion is also a factor. Major religion is the Ukranian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (there are also schismatic Ukrainian Patriarchate and Greek Catholics). However priests of the UOCotMP had supported Maidan. And current acting head of the church made a declaration to the Moscow Patriarch that can be interpreted as a threat to secede if the Patriarch condone the Russian aggression in the Crimea.
    - Western Ukrainians tend to be more anti-Russian and pro-ukrainization. They have a pretty different view of the WWII events, considering that they weren't a part of USSR before that.

    It's far more complicated than "Ukraine divided in two parts" or "Russian-speakers want to join Russia."

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