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  1. #61
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockman29 View Post
    A fun game and engaging game is fun and engaging, whether or not it is AAA or has a big budget or whatever other metric is applied to designate a game as AAA or not.

    Do I care if Natural Selection 2 is AAA? No. I enjoy the game. Do I care that Devil May Cry 4 came from a big publisher like CAPCOM? No, I really like the game.

    Will I buy Gran Turismo 6 because it is AAA? No, I will buy it because I really enjoy the series. Did I buy Uncharted or TLOU because Naughty Dog can afford to spend a lot of money to develop a game? No, I bought them because I found them fun and engaging.

    Is Dark Souls a AAA game or not? What about Demon's Souls? Is Dark Souls 2 a AAA game now, because the series is more popular now? Or because now they are spending more money on it? What does it even matter anyway, to me it's the content of the game that matters.

    I think people got to get away from the AAA games mentality.

    I think it really gutted the mid range publisher tier and robbed us of a lot of fun games we might've had otherwise. Demon's Souls was lucky to survive the culling of mid tier games IMO.

    There is no room for the average budget game to take risks if everyone only pays attention to indie games or big budget blockbusters.
    Uhm... what?

    Demon Souls was just an interesting idea. There are LOTS of games at that level of developmental cost and polish released every year. What "mid range publisher tier" games were we robbed of? Because we've had a pretty wide variety over the past year.

    This is what annoys me. Everyone always thinks "This is the year gaming is dying" and "everything sucks now, it used to be great" when, if anything, we are doing better now than we ever have been. We have games for just about everybody coming from a wide range of sources. If you don't like a few games, fine. But don't start arbitrarily defining things to make yourself "an edgy rebel who only likes the games nobody else does" (the OP...) and don't start spouting nonsense about games being taken away from us.

    Hell, when THQ bit the bullet, you know what happened? Their IPs were sold off and went to interesting (possibly good) new homes, and the games that were near completion actually WERE completed by other publishers and sold. We lost nothing outside of a publisher who didn't really understand how to predict the market.
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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    They do publish through Steam, but they're also a development team, and Steam started as a vehicle to publish their own games. They're still independent, the fact that they're a publisher doesn't suddenly change that.
    Does that also make Blizzard and EA independent? I mean are also have development teams, started out as developers but creating publishing empires to publish their own games. They are are also independent, but they aren't what people think of as "Indies".

  3. #63
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgovory View Post
    Does that also make Blizzard and EA independent? I mean are also have development teams, started out as developers but creating publishing empires to publish their own games. They are are also independent, but they aren't what people think of as "Indies".
    EA have shareholders so no, they can't be independent. Blizzard are actually part of Activision Blizzard which is also public, so they aren't indie either. But otherwise you're basically agreeing with me - the term 'indie' isn't so much 'independent' (where the term comes from) but just a marketing label synonymous with innovation, arty, small teams, and low budgets. Much like AAA the meaning is so nebulous that it may as well not even exist, but it has been adapted by plenty of people as part of a marketing strategy. That way whenever someone calls their rip-off shadowplatformer crap, they can go "But we're indies man, we just make what we want." Or alternatively you can do what Phil Fish does and say "Fuck everybody I'm a fucking indie god." Can't get away with that in AAA.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    Much like AAA the meaning is so nebulous that it may as well not even exist
    Not really, humans are quite adapt at using indefinite and subjective concepts. They do provide some information and are cool, as long as we remember their limitations.

  5. #65
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mouton View Post
    Not really, humans are quite adapt at using indefinite and subjective concepts. They do provide some information and are cool, as long as we remember their limitations.
    True, but we have groups like Valve that apparently fit the definition of 'independent' and thus 'indie', and yet they're far away from what the term 'indie' seems to mean to many people (namely tiny teams, presumably with shoestring budgets, at least until Kickstarter came along). Which is why I think it's more of a marketing term, sort of like what the term 'indie music' has turned into. It's a rallying cry that people seem to think is synonymous with 'innovative and creative' (even if most of them are really churning out junk). We can't even sort out what counts as 'AAA' besides "Big production values" yet with the advent of Kickstarter plenty of 'indie' studios are now raking in cash well in excess of what they otherwise would have had.

    Which is why I think the term is useless as anything other than a marketing label (or occasionally an excuse or apology). There's a difference between something being indefinite and subjective, and lacking any appreciable sort of definition. We can argue over what is or isn't a game but still arrive at some sort of half-way point where we can agree (for example) that a movie is not a game. We can't seem to agree on what is or isn't indie, because we have significant anomalies like Valve.
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  6. #66
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    Uh, huh. So you say they have no definition and then arbitrarily come up with a definition.

  7. #67
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Skalpadda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgovory View Post
    So you say they have no definition and then arbitrarily come up with a definition.
    This appears to be a hobby of a lot of posters on this forum.

  8. #68
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    The only interest that we should have for "AAA games" is to measure the overall investment of companies into the PC gaming scene.

    Sure, we can say COD is a AAA game.

    Maybe we can also say Star Citizen is a AAA game, simply due to the sheer amount of money invested into the project by crowd funders. Not on the same scale as COD's advertising budget, but not insignificant in the least. Which is good. Because it shows people want more of that kind of game on PC and are willing to cough of the cash for it.

    But other than that, seeing how much money is going into projects, I don't see the point of defining games as AAA or not. From a gamer's perspective, and just looking to find games I enjoy, I really couldn't care less what defines a AAA game. It is so irrelevant to my enjoyment of a game.

  9. #69
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razgovory View Post
    Uh, huh. So you say they have no definition and then arbitrarily come up with a definition.
    I offered my definition, not the definition, and given how you disagree with it, it clearly can't be a universal definition. I mean the term 'indie' comes from 'independent' but if you wiki it, the admission is that there's no universal acceptance of what is or isn't indie. Hence why I say "I think..." not "It is..."

    But don't let that get in the way of a snarky comment.
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    We can't even sort out what counts as 'AAA' besides "Big production values" yet with the advent of Kickstarter plenty of 'indie' studios are now raking in cash well in excess of what they otherwise would have had.
    I think we can fairly safely say that developers on Kickstarter are still working on an indie style budget. It may sound like a lot, but the couple of million that the Big name Kickstarters get are minuscule compared to the budgets of even medium sized games. Also, considering the status of those that are normally successful on Kickstarter, it is also safe to say that they have worked on games with larger budgets.

  11. #71
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    I await the day we see AAAA and ABC games.

  12. #72
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vandelay View Post
    I think we can fairly safely say that developers on Kickstarter are still working on an indie style budget.
    You're right, but again, where do we draw the line with 'big production values'? A lot of it seems pretty arbitrary, which again is why I prefer the term 'indie' as a marketing term.
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  13. #73
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soldant View Post
    You're right, but again, where do we draw the line with 'big production values'? A lot of it seems pretty arbitrary, which again is why I prefer the term 'indie' as a marketing term.
    Indie, AAA, niche. They are all marketing terms, but they also generally are pretty easy to group stuff in. Yes, there are a few outliers (Valve are technically indie devs, Total War games are niche titles, etc) but there are outliers to every form of classification (David Bowie).

    We classify things so that we can express ourselves. If you say "We are making a AAA game", people know you are spending insane amounts of money on set pieces and marketing and the like. If you say "I like grunge music", we know that you like the acoustic stylings of flannel. And so forth.

    The reason I made a stink was that many of the titles that were mentioned were just moderately costly PC exclusives and some of the "not a AAA" games were blatantly obvious as AAA titles, and it seemed the dividing line was "games the OP likes and games the OP didn't like", and I get annoyed by people who are just looking for an excuse to bitch about gaming.
    Last edited by gundato; 10-12-2013 at 01:00 AM.
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  14. #74
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus soldant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    If you say "I like grunge music", we know that you like the acoustic stylings of flannel. And so forth.
    By extension, do I get to call indie-only gamers hipsters? Because if so, you just made me a very happy man.

    Quote Originally Posted by gundato View Post
    ...and it seemed the dividing line was "games the OP likes and games the OP didn't like", and I get annoyed by people who are just looking for an excuse to bitch about gaming.
    Well we all know by now that the accepted definition for "AAA" on these forums is "It's popular therefore it's shit."
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