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18-12-2013, 07:06 PM #21
I realise that you've put a lot of energy into this (and other things before), and that you grow tired of the endless deliberation, but I think we need to remember who we are and what our core ideals are. Unless we want to change that, of course. I mean, we shouldn't be locked to principles that our members don't agree to just for the sake of principle, but I believe most of us still agree with our core ideals (being first and foremost an open and welcoming group open for any members of the Rock Paper Shotgun community, as long as people behave).
In conclusion; if those who are not being part of the CC start growing resentful of preparations encroaching on their playtime with their favourite PS2 people, that is something we need to be able to discuss. If Thursdays are our holy cows (giraffes?) then perhaps we can make do with having our potential SLs be SLs for Stratgir and make sure that our squads play with the same kind of tactics and procedures as the CCEU squads will, but without segregating CCEU players from others?
Surely more organised, tightly led play is something that benefits anyone who appreciates Stratgir, and will still be useful experience for CCEU players.
18-12-2013, 07:25 PM #22
My wife often listens in while I'm playing Planetside, it's gotten to the point where she recognises all the regular's voices and "back seat drives" conversations. If I ever say anything clever or amusing on Mumble, I'm almost certainly just repeating something she said off-mic... anyway. Anecdote: first time she heard Eso leading a StratGir session, she commented afterwards on how amazingly patient and diplomatic he seemed, and here that is in evidence once again. Purple Giraffe medal, that man!
I really don't mean to upset anyone, and I'm certainly not interested in preventing anyone playing when or in whatever way they'd like. But if CCEU is going to be such a priority for those lucky enough to be involved that we are effectively going to be putting a hold on all other outfit activities, it would be nice to know that up front, and it would be really nice if we could have a bit of a discussion about it too.
18-12-2013, 07:25 PM #23
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Edit: So, the issue is that people are committing to CCEU in the first place and that might affect general play because those interested in it aren't around?
18-12-2013, 07:28 PM #24
seems like we are anticipating a problem that might not even occur.. shall we discuss and resolve when/if its actually becomes a problem..
18-12-2013, 07:42 PM #25
@Bankrotas Christ no. Of course not. If that was a serious question then could you please just read the OP properly before commenting.
@CMaster You may well dare say that, but if people can't make a certain day, they can't make it. (It won't effect selection as of yet - simply because selection is something we have yet to get round to talking about) It's that simple. Unfortunate, but simple. Don't get me wrong. I'm the first person to wish and hope that everyone could be involved in CCEU and not have to miss out or whatever, but somebody has to stand up and make tough decisions. I am looking at this realistically, but after the draw; lots of people started suggesting that we could or should train and prepare more - Sooo i'm trying to set up a podium that people can use for training if they happen to be free for an evening. And yes, Tuesday definitely is and has always been THE training day.
@Kal I'm genuinely sorry that you feel like that, but I find the latter part of that post quite a derailing statement to make. You say you're unhappy about this but you are incredibly vague. You quoted Eso, but then seemingly contradicted yourself.
So please let me just reiterate to everyone: The only difference on the "busiest" days mentioned in the schedule will be that RPS & RTRS members participating in CCEU will already be set in their own squads - in order to work on training for CCEU. Everyone will still work together within the same platoon and will still very much be a part of the RPS contingent. In fact, the only noticeable difference will be that non-CCEU participants won't be in the opposite's Mumble. I do understand that perhaps the 'core' of our members will want to take part in this during the suggested 'busy night' training sessions. But that should not be misconstrued as poaching or excluding.
Whilst i completely appreciate that you may not get to play alongside people that you love to play with due to CCEU - given their reasons for doing so - i don't understand why that would continue to make you feel unwelcome.
The choice belongs to the members of the outfit and should perhaps be respected if they decide to do so. Nothing is ever done to spite people, it is only done to fulfill potential enjoyment. Instead of being praised for being proactive and creative, people have been vindicated and rebuked in the past, even after trying their hardest to introduce things to the outfit that bring a different dimension of play. I fully intend to see this through.
In reality i am trying to organise something for the good of the outfit on my own here... Non of this is about me, but just to clarify: People do actually want this. I am just trying to get things to the stage where it can be delivered so people 'Either do or they don't'.
18-12-2013, 07:44 PM #26
I can't agree to a 4 night schedule. When I entered in all days on the form, I assumed that was for choosing the training night (for some reason I checked friday despite FF). When tuesday was selected as training night, I assumed that would be that. I've since set up Wednesdays for open platoon night. To commit to 12 hours of Planetside a week specifically for training for an event, it ceases being a game and becomes a part time job on top of the 70 hours a week I already commit to my startups. I don't see what's changed between the choosing a training night (after deciding 1 night was more suitable than two nights), and them formalising the ladder, that means we need to now commit to 4 nights.
With regards to interfering with outfit operations, I'm not sure what impact it would have on RTRS other than boosting our numbers, but I will say that all bar one, maybe 2, of our regular SL/PLs are taking part in CC. We can't just tack the CC squads on to our night, they will become our night.Itsbastiat, Dawngate
Bastiat, Planetside 2, Miller NC
Therin Khatta, FFXIV, Cerberus
18-12-2013, 07:49 PM #27
Where angels fear to tread...
If cceu training leaves StratGir short of leaders then just get someone to step up for the first time. Our existing 'leaders' are just kind souls who have many times over the last year generously taken on a position where they take flak if things don't go smoothly. I feel that the outfit as a whole owes those people. The outfit isn't going to give them money or other compensation for this generosity but it can give them some latitude when they want some time to play the game their way. I find the attitude that the outfit has some sort of right to the time of 'the leaders' misguided. There are no leaders. There are just kind people who sometimes or often lead. We need more of those people. So if the cceu crew want to train seven days a week then let them (us). Surely those same people have given enough that it's time the non-leading majority give something back.WallyTrooper = TrooperWally
Wally is now on Steam!
18-12-2013, 08:44 PM #28
@Nick - sorry if you feel I'm being vague, I certainly didn't intend to be! You put it really well - poaching/excluding is exactly how it feels. I can certainly understand wanting to make the most of whatever time you can get with the core team, and it's evident that there are some who'd be happiest if every night was a CCEU night. (And maybe to really stand a chance of winning you need to do exactly that!) But to play a bit of devil's advocate, when you say, "If there are enough people online for even 1 CCEU squad, then we should be running it", isn't the corollary, "...and if we have enough people online for even 1 CCEU squad and 2 other non-CCEU people, then those two other people had better go find some other friends to play with"?
My worry, really, based on who is involved with CCEU and who usually shows up for SG/FF nights, is that the reality on a Thursday will be 3-4 squads of CCEU people playing alongside a little less than 1 (leaderless!) squad of "StratGir" people. At that point, it seems to me that we'd effectively be killing off StratGir in favour of a CCEU practice session, and just telling everyone else they can tag along if they'd like. This is even more true for Freedom Fridays, which typically have fewer regular attendees anyway.
If that's going to be the case, I think it would be better - or at least more honest - to just say something like: "All right chaps, the vast majority of RPS regulars are involved in CCEU, so StratGir/FreedomFridays are cancelled until the contest comes to a close. We will be opening our platoons to anyone who wants to join in the fun on Thursdays and Fridays though, so please feel free to turn up as usual, but expect a stricter style of play than you might be used to!" (Personally, I'd prefer that we call Thursdays and/or Fridays strictly non-CCEU nights, but I'm entirely happy to concede that that's purely my own selfish preference!)
I guess we shall see how it pans out tomorrow and Friday.
(PS @qaz - for what it's worth, "not involved" is not the same as "not interested" - I would have loved to have taken part, but I was abroad when it was announced/discussed and missed out on the chance to sign up; to be fair I certainly couldn't have committed to 4 nights a week in any case, if I'm honest I'd struggle to make 2.)
Last edited by Kal; 18-12-2013 at 09:13 PM.
18-12-2013, 08:51 PM #29
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
Edit: Also, can you see that people were a bit confused/disturbed when we had a meeting less than 2 weeks ago to a agree things, actually sorted out most things that were on the agenda and more (despit the constant claims that we always talk and never decide) and then now you come and announce things different to what was planned?
Last edited by CMaster; 18-12-2013 at 09:23 PM.
18-12-2013, 08:52 PM #30
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
That is much better explained Kal, how you first posed it it was read as 'Boohoo, they are taking my squadleaders/platoonleaders away'. Which sounded a bit silly really.
As far as I understand, just tag along and expect a more tighter/focussed tactical play for a few weeks, situations will be normal after the even is over.PS2/NS2/Mumble: SirWigglyBottom
Steam: The Almighty Snark
Let's play flightsimulators: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/foru...793#post659793
18-12-2013, 09:22 PM #31Hear from the spirit-world this mystery:
Creation is summed up, O man, in thee;
Angel and demon, man and beast art thou,
Yea, thou art all thou dost appear to be!
18-12-2013, 09:38 PM #32
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: non-CCEU players at primetime. If there is a CCEU squad up and noone to lead the regular players, would it be possible for one of the CCEU SLs to just PL, plonking down waypoints and giving occassional orders to the non-CCEU squads?
Get the feeling this would be preferable to non-CCEU players sitting in the spr srs squads, or simply being left to their own devices. Also I have now typed CCEU way too many times.
Last edited by Rizlar; 18-12-2013 at 09:40 PM.
18-12-2013, 10:44 PM #33
@Bankrotas Mind your language and stop directing negativity towards me, please. You are not involved with CCEU and CCEU will not be involved with FF. Therefor you can relax. This was merely a suggestion that CCEU squads could run within your FF platoon and assist. Whilst being independently minded and lead by anyone who wanted to.
@CMaster Ultimately that's up to you to decide. I wouldn't want to tell you how to do things. Just attend what you can when you can. Same goes for everyone else. It's important to bare in mind, if you miss one or all of these days, it's no big deal. It's not to say that the same things covered in that session won't be repeated on another day or even spur of the moment 'like. In fact, i would highly recommend people who have missed a session or two to push for a catch up when they are online. IF they want to.
@All I'm not telling people that they must attend any or all of these. I'm merely trying to set up a skeleton structure in the hope that things actually happen; IF there are people on that want them to. To be amusingly blunt, as much as i love this community things never actually happen unless a constant small minority push it through, this is an effort to compensate the inevitable reluctance and stagnation.
@Kal I can empathise with you fully and know how i would feel in the same place. That being said though, if you worry so much for StratGir perhaps you could ask yourself where were you when it was dying off, or when there was nobody to take over the mantle from our exhausted PLs. Probably sitting in the mass silence with everyone else because you certainly weren't this vocal back then. Perhaps that was unfair of me, it i feel it is relevant here. Because ultimately if you were worried about Thursday then you clearly don't know how important it is to everyone who is in the outfit also. I can appreciate that you 1: might feel left out in a situation like the one you proposed and 2: worry for SG, but please be realistic about it all. Do what I, anyone and everyone else does when there isn't a big RPS presence: Either go and join a TVA public platoon, step up and lead the outfit members who remain, or just go and do something else all together. Use some initiative.
If you are not prepared to do any of those things then i would reluctantly suggest the you were of the opinion that you were entitled to have people lead you or have people play with you... Ask yourself what if i, or any of our other usual leaders vanished or decided to not do so anymore? What would happen to SG then?... Thursdays have arguably been nurtured and created by the very people that have lead them or organised them. Everyone else is, for all intense and purposes, along for the ride. Nobody is entitled to anything as far as i'm aware. People are free to do whatever they want to do. You just do what you can with what you have. Even if you're on your own.
If you don't already, it would be really great if you could understand that although everyone loves playing together in the usual format, people sometimes want to do something different or want to be really challenged. Ultimately, if they want that enough then they will have it and ultimately, if time is short, opportunities fleeting and attendance "core" hefty, Thursday might well be a day where people can play in that way. (Which may i add, is incredibly similar to the last few StratGirs anyway.) If that is the case, then to be blunt, you just have to accept it for what it is and roll in another squad. Either that or be proactive about it and maybe ask if you can get in on it too for some general experience.
This whole thing was about trying to create a harmony between the two focuses of the outfit. Yes, i know the majority of the regulars have decided they want to participate in CCEU and that might be detrimental to leadership structure and whatnot. Me of all people highlighted and considered that straight away. But perhaps i'd hoped that it was about time people stepped up? For the leeching to stop and for people to actually give it a go. Lammhueter stepped up and did a great job the other day, so it is possible. I definitely wouldn't risk upsetting the StratGir atmosphere not after the amount of effort I've put into it over the past 6 months. The fact is that it IS possible. It just needs (and i'd hoped that) people would get up off their arses and make it so. Unless your reaction means you think otherwise? Drexla has already stepped up to SL for the non-CCEU half of the platoon.
I am pushing for this on behalf of everyone who 'wanted' more training sessions, whilst also having planned to PL tomorrow, if the game is working. Thereby sacrificing not only a relaxed session as a grunt, but potential time to participate in the training myself. I can assure you that nobody is being excluded. There is no knowing how many people we will get for any CCEU session. There are also plenty of people who do not wish to take part in CCEU. There wont be bias shown towards either. NOTHING will be effected or changed apart from having some people who always lead, not lead for once.
18-12-2013, 10:49 PM #34
- Join Date
- Jun 2011
This isn't to say that further training opportunities aren't good - there was a lot of support at th meeting for say, organising scrims (someone mentioned that pick-up thing - sounds like we could make use of that, even if only 1/2 squads are on). Also talked about was droppong in on DIG-T's trainings sessions, more lessons in how to fly from SirHoc, etc. I just feel that we should like up Tuesdays with a big "please come to this" sign, with an "also coming to these would be great" on everything else.
Selection for actual matches - I've said before my preference would be to wait until we have a match date, then do it approx a week before, then pick on criteria in this order: Availability, Reiliability, Usefulness (as determined by SLs I guesss)
Last edited by CMaster; 18-12-2013 at 10:53 PM.
18-12-2013, 11:24 PM #35
Sure, and that is Tuesday. I am not repeating myself again. People want to train more. You can't really have it both ways. OP was specific timewise. This was an attempt at covering all bases so that we could hopefully get any/all/some people training at some point during the week's prime time evenings. The hope was that on any given day we would at least get 1 squad of CCEU playing together. Whilst prioritising not interrupting the usual schedule too much. Prep simply won't happen otherwise and it will be all kinds of not fun come the 1st round... Not even bringing into account the reliability issues of the game recently and the month of Christmas.
OP was not the Rosetta Stone. It was just a common-sense suggestion or a proposed guideline for when it would be most efficient to have a good ratio of member availability:training sessions whilst still benefiting general play. If people want to suggest training with DIGT or whatever then please do actually go ahead and do it yourself or facilitate someone to do it. This Outfit is stuck in the impossible situation where anyone can suggest and direct anything, given support. But nobody is willing to do so. Nobody. Also, for the record, people can hate this and think it's bad by all means, they're entitled too. But at least i am trying to prepare a decent system and benefit the community. Now let's stop discussing and start being proactive/constructive.
19-12-2013, 01:28 AM #36
Re: CCEU pulling regulars (especially regular PLs and SLs) away from prime time outfit nights.
We've had a chronic shortage of leaders for ever. If this makes the outfit realise how dependent they are on a few regulars then, well, good. If you don't find the kind of play you want on StratGir or other nights because there are no leaders then step up and be that leader the outfit needs.
We are here because we want to have fun playing the game. For most outfit members this fun has been helped by those of us for whom 'having fun' is also about helping others have fun and play a good game by leading platoons and squads. However for many of who in the past have been primary leaders are, over the next three months, gonna be about having fun by working towards doing well in this competition and not focusing on leading as we used to.
I've put a lot into this outfit and I do not, and will not, feel guilty about pulling to one side to play in CCEU squads when I play over the next few weeks. No one who sees the CCEU as something fun to be working towards should be made to feel guilty about that. The fact that we've had (and will continue to have) some of the best platoon leaders on Miller is something outfit members should be grateful for that.
In summary: As leader I regularly put aside playing the game, gaining XP and all that to help others have a better experience in PS2. If taking that leadership away to be in the CCEU seems selfish then so damn what: I deserve to be selfish.
In general: can we confirm Tuesdays as primary training days and a general intention that "every night any intending CCEU players should form squads and, at the least, practice playing together and, ideally, try and meet the suggested training schedule."Originally Posted by CROCONOUGHTKEY
19-12-2013, 05:57 PM #37
One thing I would say Kal, is that while youve probably missed the window to play in CCEU as a squad lead, I believe you are still more than welcome to start attending the training sessions, and im sure nobody would begrudge you or anybody else from joining in to possibly be selected when that time comes.
As I believe it, training is happening in bigger groups at the moment, and later on that group will be thinned to around 24 for the actual event.
You said you would have liked to join, but missed sign up. If you want to join in with the hopes of playing, all you need to is turn up to the training, ask about it and have fun.
While I believe Nicks intention was to try and promote training as being integral to success, he has also made it clear that nothing is mandatory, as this is all in the spirit of fun ultimately. It is however ideal that you turn up on tuesdays as a minimum, though if you have to miss a day, nobody will slap your hand for it :P.
That said, you cant expect to turn up one week before selection, and still hope to participate. The final decision will probably be based on who has attended the most and who the guys feel can offer the most in the actual event. This will most likely, and rightly, be the guys who have put the most effort over the past year into the outfit, simply because these are the people who have been wanting this to happen, and they deserve to represent us.
While I have said im going to join in and do some of the training, I too cannot attend all sessions, but Ill still do it for the fun. While Im fairly certain that I wont be picked, given that most of the other guys on the list are so much better than me, Im still in there. Ive offered myself up as a last minute reserve too, in case people dont show or cant make it.
On top of this, as people have explained now, this wont interfere with how the usual thursday game feels and plays for everybody else, not really. While you may not have the same PL and SLs that you are used to, you still will have one of our fabulous community members taking the lead. Not everybody is taking part in this.
Also, if you feel we are short on leaders, take it as an opportunity to step up, as cooper and others have said! We are always looking for people to help.
Otherwise, I believe thursdays will operate as usual, the only difference being that CCEU squads are a set bunch of people. Yes they will be segregated, but only as much as a squad usually would. It may even be possible for the CCEU PL to take the lead on those particular nights, in which case all operations can be joint, but CCEU can focus on tighter tactics while the others play the way they want.
Anyway, hopefully you (and everybody else who might feel the same) understands the situation a bit better.
Nick, and the other CCEU organisers/leaders, would never set out to segregate the community, but to organise something like this, within which it is impossible to include everybody, there has to be some compromise.
19-12-2013, 06:39 PM #38
... and almost inevitably, embarrassingly, something has come up which means I won't be able to make it on for StratGir this evening. *sigh* I'll be very interested to hear how everything pans out though, wish you all the best of luck
@Nick - I don't know if we've just somehow missed chatting to each other in play sessions before, but I'm really puzzled by your saying I haven't been vocal. I only joined RPS in May this year, so if StratGir dying out and PL burnout was a big issue before that, it would certainly explain why you didn't hear anything from me "back then"! I'll also cheerfully concede I haven't been about very much for the last couple of months. My Mum had a stroke in September which has left her paralyzed on one side, and I've been busy helping my stepdad & brother take care of her. But between May and September I was playing loads, most nights even, and I don't believe anyone who's played with me would describe me as the "mass silence" type!
Anyway, sorry if I put anyone's noses out of joint with this, I'm glad it (eventually) resulted in some calm and sensible discussion on the topic.
19-12-2013, 08:58 PM #39
Yeah, im sure nobody would have a problem with you joining in. Just jump into their training and ask about it, and im sure somebody can help you out. Considering weve only just found out were actually in, its hardly like its too late! .
The decline has been for a while now, probably starting just after may actually? It surprises me that you havent run into nick, as he is very active, and leads quite a bit(as he will no doubt explain).
In fact, the decline is kind of still happening. People havent been as active for a while, in part because we havent run any big CTA events, and in part because people are fizzling out in enthusiasm for the game/other games come out..
Many of us actually dont mind this so much, as it was becoming difficult (and for many, stressful) to manage. Smaller tighter groups are more common now.
I also took a fairly large break from play, and while I have been more active recently, and have been active on the forum all throughout, this shouldnt ever and wont ever stop you from participating in such a community. The goal is to provide a relaxed (yet fun and competetive) environment with people that you can get on with .
In a way, its good that the issue was brought up, if nothing more than so it could be addressed sooner rather than later, as im sure others would agree.
20-12-2013, 09:11 AM #40
Popped a quick post over at the Jesters forums wishing them luck and asking if theyd be up for something silly after the match. Here's my post:
Good Morning all,
My name's Dewi and I'm from the Rock Planet Shotgun outfit.
Just wanted to say hey and good luck with our match up. I think we're really well matched and you guys seem awesome from what I've read, and we're all looking forward to it. Hopefully it should be a lot of fun for all of us!
Some of us were wondering if, after the match, you guys fancied doing something a bit silly, like a Harraser/Flash/Sundy race, or Sundy Camp Fire circle, or whatever could be fun, where we can let our hair down and just **** about for a bit!
So yeah, buzz me over at the Rock Paper Shotgun forums (in the Planetside section, or a PM, forum name there is just Dewi) if you wanna speak to us about anything (other than tacs, cos you know, wheres the fun in that!?), and see you on the battlefield!