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  1. #41
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    A few things to remember:

    1) While the WiiU has extremely flexible control options, many games seem to require the pad. Is it possible to play 3D World without a pad? There are levels where you have to tap or blow on things, which would seem to preclude ditching it. Pikmin 3 seems to require the pad, too, despite objectively controlling better with a remote and nunchuck, though maybe I'm missing something about how to pull up menus. Ditching the pad might lower the price enough to move some units, but if it does so at the cost of being able to play some of the better games for the system it might prove counterproductive.

    2) Nintendo seems to realize that they're screwed on the third party front. They've been cranking out games for the WiiU in a way that's totally different from their output for the Wii. Mario 3D World, Pikmin 3, Wind Waker, New Super Mario Bros. U, Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, and Donkey Kong all in, what, two years? Then we've got second-party titles like Wonderful 101 and Bayonetta 2 (and hopefully X) and even a few third-party exclusives like ZombiU and (arguably; it's also on 3DS) Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. That's not a game a month, but if we subscribe to the idea that a console can serve as a supplement to a favored platform rather than the be-all-end-all of our gaming habits, then Nintendo has so far been doing a decent job of justifying the WiiU.

    3) The 3DS shouldn't be counted out, and a look at the software library should prove that. There are a surprising number of titles available for it, and not all first-party, either. Companies don't publish games on systems they don't think sell--which is a big part of our discussion here--so it should be noteworthy that the 3DS has received a lot of love. Most of that has been from Japanese companies, which suggests that Western developers aren't as bullish about it (I'd say they simply would rather chase the potential CoD megabucks rather than compete in a crowded, lower-budget market) but it's there.

    4) Is there really anything that will convince skeptics to buy into the WiiU or the 3DS? I recommend the WiiU as exactly what I think it will be: a box almost solely for playing Nintendo exclusives. Clearly not everyone wants that. I recommend the 3DS as a home to weird, quirky games that haven't had much presence on the market since probably the PS1 era (notably JRPGs), but that's by admission a niche appeal. This discussion has taken place all across the Internet, but we might just be in a position where Nintendo can't continue in its current shape. If people were really as enamored of Nintendo games as is often stated, the WiiU and 3DS would be successes. That they aren't suggests that Nintendo just isn't as beloved as we assume.

  2. #42
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drinking with Skeletons View Post
    A few things to remember:

    1) While the WiiU has extremely flexible control options, many games seem to require the pad. Is it possible to play 3D World without a pad? There are levels where you have to tap or blow on things, which would seem to preclude ditching it. Pikmin 3 seems to require the pad, too, despite objectively controlling better with a remote and nunchuck, though maybe I'm missing something about how to pull up menus. Ditching the pad might lower the price enough to move some units, but if it does so at the cost of being able to play some of the better games for the system it might prove counterproductive.
    That is problematic, but we are also reaching the point where it is becoming "safe" to assume the player will have a second screen handy (tablets or PS Vitas :p. A phone, if you're desperate). That was the approach Sony took: They saw that the Wii U was really cool in that it let people play games while their family watched TV and that you could do some fun shit with a second screen (Battlefield 4, by EA, implements Commander Mode in a form that is MUCH better than it ever was in BF2). But they were smart: Rather than directly pass that cost on to the consumer, they tricked us. They said "Look how cool this is with a Vita!", and people buy Vitas. Or they counted on people having tablets anyway.0

    2) Nintendo seems to realize that they're screwed on the third party front. They've been cranking out games for the WiiU in a way that's totally different from their output for the Wii. Mario 3D World, Pikmin 3, Wind Waker, New Super Mario Bros. U, Smash Brothers, Mario Kart, and Donkey Kong all in, what, two years? Then we've got second-party titles like Wonderful 101 and Bayonetta 2 (and hopefully X) and even a few third-party exclusives like ZombiU and (arguably; it's also on 3DS) Monster Hunter 3 Ultimate. That's not a game a month, but if we subscribe to the idea that a console can serve as a supplement to a favored platform rather than the be-all-end-all of our gaming habits, then Nintendo has so far been doing a decent job of justifying the WiiU.
    The problem is that is becoming less and less justifiable. The Wii was a perfect second (or third) platform. It offered something nobody else did: Motion controls for parties. The Wii U offers exactly what everyone else offers but with shittier graphics (admittedly, a nicer style, but that doesn't matter to most people), shittier cross-platform games, and a bunch of exclusives that are pretty much all iterations on games they bought and played previously.

    Also, a big problem is that most of Nintendo's "great exclusives" are also things that indie devs have done REALLY well for the past few years. And Sony is embracing indies while MS is letting them come play for a premium (heh). So we are rapidly reaching the point where one has to question: Do they like Metroid or Metroidvania games? Do they like Mario or platformers? How much does a franchise impact enjoyment?

    3) The 3DS shouldn't be counted out, and a look at the software library should prove that. There are a surprising number of titles available for it, and not all first-party, either. Companies don't publish games on systems they don't think sell--which is a big part of our discussion here--so it should be noteworthy that the 3DS has received a lot of love. Most of that has been from Japanese companies, which suggests that Western developers aren't as bullish about it (I'd say they simply would rather chase the potential CoD megabucks rather than compete in a crowded, lower-budget market) but it's there.
    Yeah, the 3DS is pretty much the only place where Nintendo still really stands a chance, and that is just because the only other people bothering with a handheld are Sony and the Vita is "a questionable investment" to say the least (I like it, but I admit I am a moron for buying one :p).


    4) Is there really anything that will convince skeptics to buy into the WiiU or the 3DS? I recommend the WiiU as exactly what I think it will be: a box almost solely for playing Nintendo exclusives. Clearly not everyone wants that. I recommend the 3DS as a home to weird, quirky games that haven't had much presence on the market since probably the PS1 era (notably JRPGs), but that's by admission a niche appeal. This discussion has taken place all across the Internet, but we might just be in a position where Nintendo can't continue in its current shape. If people were really as enamored of Nintendo games as is often stated, the WiiU and 3DS would be successes. That they aren't suggests that Nintendo just isn't as beloved as we assume.
    That's my thinking too. Nintendo still has a lot of the niche genres that nobody has touched in a decade (although, apparently the vita is great for nifty takes on jrpgs, if you like those. I don't, so I can't really comment :p), but there might be a reason for devs not having touched those genres.
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  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus squirrel's Avatar
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    The most crazy greed Nintendo once held was for N64 that it insisted on using rom cartridge as storage medium so that it could collect the ransom in the form of royalty over publishing on Nintendo produced rom cartridges, in the time when CD as a cheap storage substitute had been so prevailing. When a man is enjoying so much of a success, one would do something so crazy that normal people just cannot conceive in right mind. But to Nintendo, at least for that time being, it made perfect sense. Your game definitely needs to be published on Nintendo's platform for it to really sells, right? Then you have to abide to Nintendo's terms. Result? Of course they didn't have to. Sony and Sega were maintaining their handsome platforms, let alone those "hundred flower blossoms", all the game consoles throughout the existing 1990s. Oh, and of course, we had been having PC all along.

    Battle for this generation of TV gaming has been lost for Nintendo. I really cannot conceive how Nintendo can turn the table without a miracle. It would be wise for Nintendo to cut loss, i.e. terminate Wii U. If it still maintains hope in conquering low-end TV gaming, that hope has just been crushed. Sony is going to release Playstation Vita TV, which is basically a Vita without its own screen so users are required to plug it to a TV to play. I read that it is to be released all over East Asia (probably has been out in Japan, but I'm not sure), within this month in Hong Kong priced at around HKD700-800, therefore probably not exceeding USD100. If you want to know what level of graphics it will be running, you may try out a recent PC title by UBI, Assassin's Creed 3: Liberation, which is a port of PS Vita title with the same name (as the title suggests, of course, this is a spin-off of AC3). Very awesome as graphics run by a computer priced that low, even lower than a Playstation 2!! Even greater, Sony has expressed wish to release it officially here!! Of course, how they build up a logistic system from distribution to after-sale maintenance from level zero would be a long way.

    Simply put, positioning of Wii U is outright disastrous. It would be much wiser for Nintendo to keep running the Wii project, yet it was all blinded by the so-call "Next Generation". What this "Next Generation" would mean to casual gamers in the first place?

    Nintendo is truly a "Too Big to Fail" giant in game industry. Please pull yourself together.

  4. #44
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Nintendo is truly a "Too Big to Fail" giant in game industry. Please pull yourself together.
    I disagree. They are pretty encapsulated and don't even have the entirety of the Japanese market anymore (apparently Sony does quite well and the PSP/Vita didn't flop horribly). If they go out of business, it shouldn't really have much impact on gaming as a whole outside of a bunch of new jobseekers.

    If a company like EA or Ubi went down, yeah, there would be a huge impact (they provide a significant number of games and franchises for every platform). If nintendo goes down, the only platform affected is the one that went down.
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  5. #45
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    Sony is going to release Playstation Vita TV, which is basically a Vita without its own screen so users are required to plug it to a TV to play.
    There is lust in my heart for this weird little thing.

  6. #46
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Xercies's Avatar
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    Hearing about the Vita thing, I think gaming is going into mulitple weird directions, I'm still surprised there are consoles to be honest really and Nintendo looks so far behind.

    Nintendo is truly a "Too Big to Fail" giant in game industry. Please pull yourself together.


    Nothing is to big to fail, even with Mario and Zelda and Pokmon I can see people getting fatigued hell I already think its happened considering that they have re-released ocarina of time twice and are re-releasing wind waker now. I think along with what you said Nintendo will sink with their ship, they are still quite an arrogant company unfortunately a lot of their muscle has completely dissapeared.

  7. #47
    Lesser Hivemind Node Kodeen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squirrel View Post
    It would be wise for Nintendo to cut loss, i.e. terminate Wii U.
    While it makes sense to do that from a technological perspective, from a market standpoint I'm not so sure. If they did kill the Wii U very early due to poor sales, they will earn the reputation of a company that will kill consoles very early due to poor sales, a reputation which didn't do Sega any favors. I still think the Dreamcast could have done well if people still didn't have a very poor taste in their mouth from the 32x and the Saturn.

  8. #48
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    I think it's worth re-iterating that the 3DS is doing okay. It's successful in that it's not failing, but it's hardly setting the world on fire. It's coming under scrutiny because alongside the Wii U, it's not doing that much. If the 3DS was doing DS numbers with a high attach rate, maybe Nintendo wouldn't have to fuss over the Wii U quite as much as they are doing. It isn't, I don't think it does and they really should be.

    Also, last year was a big year for the 3DS, sure, but years like that don't come around often. I'd dare say that it was an alignment of the planets, but perhaps enough of one to give the console greater momentum to maintain its heading.
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  9. #49
    Lesser Hivemind Node Drinking with Skeletons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post

    Also, last year was a big year for the 3DS, sure, but years like that don't come around often. I'd dare say that it was an alignment of the planets, but perhaps enough of one to give the console greater momentum to maintain its heading.
    Last year was an amazing year for the 3DS. If the WiiU could have a year like that, it might convince some people to take the plunge.

  10. #50
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Heliocentric's Avatar
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    Get Intellegent Systems to make a new advance wars with a heightmap 3D battlemap I'd buy a 3D tomorrow.
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  11. #51
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    I am surprised there has not been an Advance Wars for 3DS.

    Dual Strike was great being able to use the touch screen. Then the grimmer Days of Ruin had a more interesting setting and had lots of great scenarios. Play that to death.

    Wii U version would be great using the GamePad. Give me a new proper Shining Force on the Wii U Sega while we are at it. I do need to complete all of Shining Force III still tho...

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Moraven View Post
    I do need to complete all of Shining Force III still tho...
    Are you playing with the translation patches? If so, how are they?

  13. #53
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    Argos has just dropped the price of Wii U in the UK. It'll take more than that, but it's a start.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drinking with Skeletons View Post
    4) Is there really anything that will convince skeptics to buy into the WiiU or the 3DS? I recommend the WiiU as exactly what I think it will be: a box almost solely for playing Nintendo exclusives. Clearly not everyone wants that.
    I was a huge Nintendo fan from the SNES through GCN generations, and got a lot out the Wii too, even if waving a wand around was always, at best, incidental to the experience. Nintendo can make great games, but that doesn't mean I'm interested in wading through shit to get to them. Where by 'shit' I mean Nintendo's complete inability to engage with the modern world, or even to stick to its own design philosophies.

    An example of what I mean by the latter: Nintendo sold the Wii in part on the idea that conventional game systems were too complicated, that they were intimidating for the uninitiated or casual user. So what do they give us in 3DS? A system that has three 'system' buttons (Start, Select, and the new Home button) when one should suffice. Or suppose you want to delete your profile in Mario Kart 7, why from the main menu you just select your prof -- oh, wait, you don't do that. Ok, so you go to your Mii and -- oops, you don't do that either. Getting desperate here, but what about system settings and storage management? Nope. Actually what you do, after consulting Google, is hold an esoteric button combination at the game splash screen like you're back in the 1980s.

    It's doom and gloom as far as the eye can see. And you're right, bringing up specific points like X game was pretty good and sold pretty well doesn't change the picture, because those specific points aren't the problem -- those can be fixed, given the will to change. But it isn't there, the rot is pervasive, to the point that Nintendo don't even seem to recognise their growing irrelevance. About the most positive thing one can say is that they've got enough cash in the bank, and enough momentum left in the questionable success that was 3DS, that they can probably afford to keep their head in the sand for another decade before expiring from lack of oxygen.

    I was just reading Eurogamer's tell-all piece by an anonymous third-party Wii U developer:

    Around this time we got the chance to talk to some more senior people in Nintendo, via a phone conference, as they were gathering feedback on our development experiences and their toolchain [....] we probed a little deeper and asked how certain scenarios might work with the Mii friends and networking, all the time referencing how Xbox Live and PSN achieve the same thing. At some point in this conversation we were informed that it was no good referencing Live and PSN as nobody in their development teams used those systems (!)
    Says it all really. Nintendo really do live in their own little world; unfortunately they have to do business in ours.
    Last edited by Lethe; 23-01-2014 at 09:23 AM.

  15. #55
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    http://sf3trans.shiningforcecentral.com/

    Is solid and is still getting updates.

    I have the US disc and imported Scenario 2 and 3.


    Sega still needs release a proper update to a turn based tactical Shining game.

  16. #56
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    Surely in this day and age, first party support alone is not enough?

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heliocentric View Post
    Get Intellegent Systems to make a new advance wars with a heightmap 3D battlemap I'd buy a 3D tomorrow.
    I pretty much splooged all over my desk. I'm not even joking.

    But i'm seeing very little discussion here about Nintendo's gaming philosophy. This is a company that releases games which work out of the box, uses its hardware capabilities to the utmost, consistently rewards its players with games that have interesting and fun gameplay, don't cheapen the experience with social media and "achievement" whoring and generally treat its players with respect and understanding.

    Yes, they're a bit behind the times in certain areas but in terms of their actual games? As good as ever. The last 18 months across the 3DS and WiiU has seen a megaton of awesome games which is undeniable.

    Have they screwed up relationships with 3rd parties yet again? Yes they have but I wouldn't put it past them to fix this at some point. As for the doom and gloom on the 3DS, I have no doubt it'll overtake the PSP over the next couple of years. This is a gut instinct thing. Its a classic robust, sturdy and a very Nintendo machine with heaps of good games on it and with more incoming. Best of all, its backwards compatible with the DS library. That alone will keep it going for a few years yet.

    I still play my DSL due to its GBA backwards compatibility.

    Edit: further thoughts; there is something wrong in our industry and its consumers - i.e. us - if we are berating a company with a gaming philosophy like Nintendo's. There is something deeply disturbing and self-entitlement whorish about it.
    Last edited by khaz; 28-01-2014 at 11:54 AM.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, that philosophy assumes that we only use gaming platforms purely to game on and whilst there's an inherent advantage to that, the majority of people want more. It also ignores the fact that lately Nintendo have done little to push power. You could say they haven't for a bit, although I don't believe the Gamecube was that weak, but the Wii was certainly no pusher, the Wii U was several years behind and the 3DS wasn't a significant leap over the DS. In fact, that's perhaps more damming because at least some games on the Wii U are 1080, so there's a faux keeping-up. The 3DS just feels underpowered and whilst A Link Between Worlds is one of the best games I've played in the last few years, every time I saw a character model outside of the standard view I wished it was more powerful. Heck, they're even slow as to doing anything about SNES emulation because it's not absolutely powerful. It's a farce.

    Nintendo's problem for the last ages hasn't been their games, it's been everything else around that. And whilst they are adding achievements here and there, nothing pervasive just enough for incentive to try something different, everything they do is just nibbling away at a bigger thing that they need to take whole mouthfuls of. The Wii U, a machine released in 2012, did not have a personal account system separate from the hardware. What on earth are they doing?!

    I will bet a solid tenner on the fact that the 3DS won't surpass the PSP numbers. That's 80 million and they're currently at what, about 13.5? The market has changed too much for the 3DS to do what it does. It currently has the games, but unlike the Vita doesn't have the hardware to give it some oomph (and it seems the Vita might just get a second wind as a second screen with the PS4, especially if Sony start doing PS4/Vita bundles), nor does it have the functionality close to a smart phone. And I'm not suggesting it has to have both, but their starting price was $250 for the thing in the US. That's insane.

    The last few years has just shone a light on how out of touch Nintendo are with the outside world.
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  19. #59
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus gundato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The JG Man View Post
    I will bet a solid tenner on the fact that the 3DS won't surpass the PSP numbers. That's 80 million and they're currently at what, about 13.5? The market has changed too much for the 3DS to do what it does. It currently has the games, but unlike the Vita doesn't have the hardware to give it some oomph (and it seems the Vita might just get a second wind as a second screen with the PS4, especially if Sony start doing PS4/Vita bundles), nor does it have the functionality close to a smart phone. And I'm not suggesting it has to have both, but their starting price was $250 for the thing in the US. That's insane.
    ...

    I suddenly have the mental image of a bunch of Sony execs who greenlighted the PSP and Vita sitting in a room saying "Whose the bitch now?"

    Seriously, when the PSP/Vita are outselling a handheld that is just terrifying. I like Sony and own both, but they are half-assed at best (as you say, the Vita's best shot is being seen as a companion to the PS4).
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  20. #60
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus The JG Man's Avatar
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    Well Sony can at least look to the PS4 as a suggestion to success, perhaps reaching to PS2 numbers if they have the resources to meet it. Whilst the PSP did well, at least against the DS, the Vita is doing Wii U numbers. Or at least, above Wii U numbers. They certainly are in no place to call anyone else a bitch for their hardware choices though!
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