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  1. #41
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    Article about a woman game dev being sexually harrassed by a reporter.

    Guys flock to it, immediately turn it into why John Walker is an asshole.

    Subject evasion at its finest, guys! There's no problem here, because we won't talk about it! Quick! Find another tangentially related subject that we can all agree on! Oh no! Isn't that Mister Walker such a meanieeeeee Strawman! Strawman! I'm not a monster! I'm lovely! I'm lovely!

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Article about a woman game dev being sexually harrassed by a reporter.

    Guys flock to it, immediately turn it into why John Walker is an asshole.

    Subject evasion at its finest, guys! There's no problem here, because we won't talk about it! Quick! Find another tangentially related subject that we can all agree on! Oh no! Isn't that Mister Walker such a meanieeeeee Strawman! Strawman! I'm not a monster! I'm lovely! I'm lovely!
    There's not a whole lot to discuss is there? Guy was a troll/did something really bad, got burned bad for it, is now seeking psych help and left the site he founded. What would you add to this?

  3. #43
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Article about a woman game dev being sexually harrassed by a reporter.

    Guys flock to it, immediately turn it into why John Walker is an asshole.

    Subject evasion at its finest, guys! There's no problem here, because we won't talk about it! Quick! Find another tangentially related subject that we can all agree on! Oh no! Isn't that Mister Walker such a meanieeeeee Strawman! Strawman! I'm not a monster! I'm lovely! I'm lovely!
    Funny, I don't see anyone who disagrees that what happened was bad, that it shouldn't have happened or that Josh Mattingly was in the wrong.

    Have you anything to add to the discussion yourself or are you just going to comment on the thread?
    "Halo is designed to make the player think "I look like that, I am macho sitting in my undies with my xbox""

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  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    There's not a whole lot to discuss is there? Guy was a troll/did something really bad, got burned bad for it, is now seeking psych help and left the site he founded. What would you add to this?
    Nothing! So why are people turning the thread into boo hiss John Walker? It's a forum! The new thread button is just a click away!

    Can we talk about Nasa too, if to show we all agree with the thread subject, we can turn it towards whatever takes our fancy? I'm all about space. It's well brilliant.

    Or would that be getting off topic.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus_Phish View Post
    Funny, I don't see anyone who disagrees that what happened was bad, that it shouldn't have happened or that Josh Mattingly was in the wrong.

    Have you anything to add to the discussion yourself or are you just going to comment on the thread?
    No, because the people who didn't think that was worth talking about immediately grabbed on to the first opportunity to spin the subject away. By post 9 you have new posters who haven't even acknowledged the original thread at all and are exclusively posting about the John Walker aspect. By the latter stage of page 2, the original post is basically gone and everyone's arguing about John Walker.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrius View Post
    You can't "learn" some assholes into nice people, but you CAN teach them that if they keep it up they'll suffer.
    This is wrong on so, so many levels and really one of the core reasons why it's so difficult to make progress on this in the online hemisphere. Thanks to people thinking like what you wrote in that sentence. Witch Hunting someone does not induce change in a person. They may put up a public front and act humble for a bit, but you will not have changed the way they think and operate one smidgen.
    The core reason being, that they simply do not understand where they went wrong. From their perspective, they did everything right. They were brought up to be an asshole, their entire system of values is based around the idea of assholes, their friends were brought up as assholes, the system of values of those friends are based around the idea of assholes. Their family brough them up as assholes, the families of their friends brought them up as assholes. Their teachers taught them to be assholes, the teachers of everyone they know did the same. A lynchmob being nasty to them, does not revoke years of cultural upbringing. Instead it brings about resentment and anger. From their perspective: "I can see no fault in my actions, my friends can see no fault in my actions, my family can see no fault in my actions, therefore I'm in the Right and must defend myself". And oh dear, do cornered animals get nasty.

    To change the way they think, you need to understand how they think, see where they're coming from and then dismantle their arguments. Tediously, one by one. A step at a time, with the patience of saints (not rows) and angels. Some are too damaged to salvage. They will simply die out. These changes are generational and need persistence. It's like all the research on conflict resolution has been thrown out the window and somehow people are back at the point where they think attacking someones identity is going to sway them to your side.
    There's a gaming related equivalent that shows quite well the issue with this approach and just why it does not work: "U FUCKING NOOB PRIEST ZOMG, DIE IN A FIRE, Y U NO HEAL ME?". If I were the priest in that situation, the button to heal said teammate would magically disappear from my keyboard.

    /edit:
    @Serenegoose
    The topic is witch hunts and how to approach the situation. It's really quite in line with the opening post. How to discuss this is the topic. I doubt you'll find anyone here that is willing to say "But Josh did right!" or "But the Shitstorm is right!". Nor is the topic being derailed.
    Last edited by theForged; 29-01-2014 at 05:03 PM.

  7. #47
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Jesus_Phish's Avatar
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    So rather than try bring it back around or even do the opposite of what poster #9 did you're just doing the same thing and continuing not to discuss the original topic, nor even the supposed tangent stealing of "JW is bad man", but rather comment on that?

    Also a page of two or three people talking back and forth on a matter does not hijack a thread and derail it as some kind of "OMG LETS GET OFF TOPIC QUICK!!".

    Rather than try point out that this is "guys flocking" to it to derail it and change the subject matter, you could repond to the OP and ignore the majority of page 2.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nothing! So why are people turning the thread into boo hiss John Walker? It's a forum! The new thread button is just a click away!

    Can we talk about Nasa too, if to show we all agree with the thread subject, we can turn it towards whatever takes our fancy? I'm all about space. It's well brilliant.

    Or would that be getting off topic.
    I dunno, I generally don't mind a thread moving on. This isn't a derail since the original track already ended, but it's a somewhat logical continuation (since John is the resident writer for all things feminism in games).

  9. #49
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus Unaco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Article about a woman game dev being sexually harrassed by a reporter.

    Guys flock to it, immediately turn it into why John Walker is an asshole.
    And then someone comes along and makes it about how terrible guys are, and how they always miss the point, or evade it, and just don't get it!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    I just have an opinion different to your own. Circle jerking is good for no one, be glad somebody isn't afraid to disagree with women on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hypernetic View Post
    No, you are literally the cancer that is killing gaming.
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    Nobody's ever lost sleep over being called a cracker.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unaco View Post
    And then someone comes along and makes it about how terrible guys are, and how they always miss the point, or evade it, and just don't get it!!
    I am the demons.

  11. #51
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    and then someone comes along and makes idiotic generalisations about everything. Generalisations about someone is what got us into this mess, so how about leaving out the silly complaints and maybe try and steer the discussion in a direction you want instead of just complaining that other people arent doing so.

    This goes for everyone.
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  12. #52
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    I'd like to see that mentality applied to each and every single person out there who ever did something wrong.
    I am quite confident that if I sexually harassed a client, coworker, or contact at work I would be fired in an instant. There are consequences to my actions, and I recognize that.

    Haven't you seen all of those calls for the right to be forgotten of late? That also includes the mistakes you've made. People can change, people can make mistakes and correct their course. Reminding them of their mistakes and branding them forever because of those is the worst way to go around it.
    Except we're not talking about branding them forever, we're talking about punishing them NOW for something they just did. It's not a case of branding a 10 year old shoplifter forever, it's a case of a GROWN ADULT suffering any punishment at all for their actions. Who has this "branding forever" really hurt? Some action examples? Because it seems to me that people are instead jumping how we should show sympathy, understanding, and forgiveness to people who act like assholes as soon as they do so, basically giving them a free pass to be jerks as much as they want. It's each person's individual choice to hold something against someone else forever - I can never blame someone for not trusting another person who has proven themselves a harasser - but some consequences are needed, and people are confusing "reasonable consequences to actions" with "being branded for life."

  13. #53
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus coldvvvave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenegoose View Post
    By post 9 you have new posters who haven't even acknowledged the original thread
    Welcome to internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Drake Sigar View Post
    You are an enemy of gaming.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by theForged View Post
    To change the way they think, you need to understand how they think, see where they're coming from and then dismantle their arguments. Tediously, one by one. A step at a time, with the patience of saints (not rows) and angels. Some are too damaged to salvage. They will simply die out.
    Note that I specifically said SOME assholes. You may not be able to change your racist 80 year old father's mind, but if he learns that as soon as he starts going on racist rants you grab the grandkids and go home, he's going to learn to stop doing it. That's what I'm suggesting, here - consequences are the only way to curb the bad behavior of an unbudging subset of people, and removing consequences is not a good idea.
    Last edited by Karrius; 29-01-2014 at 05:13 PM.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karrius View Post
    Note that I specifically said SOME assholes. You may not be able to change your racist 80 year old father's mind, but if he learns that as soon as he starts going on racist rants you grab the grandkids and go home, he's going to learn to stop doing it. That's what I'm suggesting, here - consequences are the only way to curb the bad behavior of an unbudging subset of people, and removing consequences is not a good idea.
    But he's not going to stop doing that. He'll keep doing it and just not socialize with you instead. And not just that, but in you doing that, you've confirmed his believes and put his fears into reality. Especially when he goes to meet his veteran friends from the regular's table. Which in turn project this onto their own families. This stuff spreads. You can't curb it with force as that will only make it spread even quicker.
    I'm not gonna reply to your second part, because I have no idea where you twisted that Strawman from.

  16. #56
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    Other people used the "branded for life" phrasing, and I'm challenging it.

    And ok, what is your suggestion, then? NOT punish people for sexual harassment? Just try to have them sit down, and nicely teach them - which often leads to threats of violence, outright ignoring, and verbal harassment?

    What I'm saying is "If you can't be polite around the grandkids, you won't be able to spend time with them like you want", and "If you are going to be a sexual harasser towards people important to your job, expect not to have your job much longer." These both seem pretty damn reasonable to me. You already admitted that you thought you absolutely could not get through to some people - what is wrong with the idea of justified consequences towards them? They may still feel the same ways, but if they're not ACTIVELY harassing people, that's still a net gain.

  17. #57
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    Are we actually talking about Josh Mattingly or a made-up character here?

    I don't know about you, but I've seen him prior to this and this is not his normal behavior. Moreover, I'd never ever picture him threatening anyone with violence or ignoring the issue or doing more harassment. The guy is most likely mortified of his own behavior right now and I doubt just pinning him on a wall for it is going to do any good.

    If he were a repeat offender and didn't give a shit about all of the fallout, you might have a point, but this isn't what's happening here. I'm also pretty sure that this is going to follow him for the rest of his career, whether you think so or not. It's always going to be "THAT" guy.

  18. #58
    Secondary Hivemind Nexus mickygor's Avatar
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    There's a big difference between grandkids and certain usernames, though. There are no significant consequences on the internet, so punishment won't work. Which is why it's best to turned to reasoned discussion. It's entirely possible to completely change people's outlooks, even on the internet - it happened with me, and I'm one of the most stubborn people I know. Dismissing the possibility of change because you've labelled someone an asshole is basically you expressing you have the same kind of stances you believe they have. Perhaps we should dismiss your view, and retract your access to your grandkids instead.
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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by FriendlyFire View Post
    I don't know about you, but I've seen him prior to this and this is not his normal behavior.
    Someone on the first page wrote this: "He's got a drinking problem that started when his brother killed himself sometime last year."

    If true then yes he has a problem, although I cannot be the judge of it, then I dont think he should be crucified either.
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  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by mickygor View Post
    There's a big difference between grandkids and certain usernames, though. There are no significant consequences on the internet, so punishment won't work
    This is ridiculous and repeating this is harmful. In any case, there are no consequences to what happened to the reporter here - after all, it's all on the internet. It also doesn't matter what anyone does or says in reaction to this - after all, it's all on the internet.

    It's entirely possible to completely change people's outlooks, even on the internet - it happened with me, and I'm one of the most stubborn people I know.
    I never claimed otherwise.

    Dismissing the possibility of change because you've labelled someone an asshole is basically you expressing you have the same kind of stances you believe they have. Perhaps we should dismiss your view, and retract your access to your grandkids instead.
    You mean the status quo? If you don't think that's what happens already, you are sorely, sorely mistaken. You really cannot threaten people with something if that's already going on. And if, say, I try to start a conversation with someone on why what they're doing is extremely hurtful, and they call me names and say they hate me... I have no problem if they suffer consequences for such actions, like if their business is mocked, loses customers, popularity, and prestige, etc. That's all internet stuff, and it's also a form of consequence.

    I'm trying to argue against the "ruining someone's life" as mentioned in post 21 and 27. What's happened to ruin someone's life that shoudn't have happened, in this case, or any other case?

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